If it was proven without a doubt the Jesus was Christ, there would be no need for faith....

 

You are a little wrong striker. It will be proven and no faith will be needed on the day every knee bows and every tongue confesses.:thumb:

Like you pointed out in another thread, try denying the existence of Australia... God gives people free will to believe in him and wants people to decide to be his, not be forced to. However, look around every day at those you love, and the beauty of the world, and if that's not proof of the Lord, I don't know what is... JMO, I'm not a religious scholar like LBBC, FB, or HHS, just the perspective of a young Christian.

 

I am speechless. I am IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM A religious scholar. I read and study. I was baptized in 1992 but did not take Christianity serious until I read in Revelations that Jesus will spit out of his mouth lukewarm people. I didn't want to be spit. That happened in the late 90's. I have studied more and led Bible studies, to make me study more since than.

 

But I am no scholar.

 

Thanks for the kind words, but just let my posts lead you to study and confirm on your own, what I have posted. It is better to pray and read and let God speak to you through Scripture than to rely on LBBC to be the say in the matter.

 

Now, FB and HHS, I am blown away by their knowledge.

Believe me - I don't feel as though you are making fun of me. I have been in your shoes before to. I was a faithful member of CG's "flock" once before and I used to debate your side of things until I later realized that I had absolutely no logic on my side and had to continually turn to "It takes faith!", and "God is not to be questioned."

 

As I got older and went through highschool and college, I let my mind open to other possibilities and realized the lunacy in my prior beliefs. Don't take that as an attack either.

 

Yeah that screwed me up too. When I ended up several years away from college, I began to realize that I was wrong with what I had thought I learned in college. And even today, my "schooling" stands flat dab as an obstacle to my faith.

 

What we have been discussing popped up in my brain about 2 weeks ago while driving, where I do a good part of my thinking/praying. How do I know there really is a God?

 

And the things I have described to you in other forums, is the answer to my question.

 

Too many times when I have followed what I am taught in the Bible, things happen just like they were promised in the Bible. I cannot see that as just mere coincidences.

There is no way to know. That's the thing.

 

I choose not to believe that a God could be as vengeful and neglectful as the one in the Christian Bible...and as I have stated repeatedly...if God is as described - I want no part in worshiping him.

 

So, the Creator of everything is accountable to what you think they should be?

 

To paraphrase Brad Stine, If God is able to be completely understood by LBBC, than he ain't the God I thought he would be.

Believe me - I don't feel as though you are making fun of me. I have been in your shoes before to. I was a faithful member of CG's "flock" once before and I used to debate your side of things until I later realized that I had absolutely no logic on my side and had to continually turn to "It takes faith!", and "God is not to be questioned."

 

As I got older and went through highschool and college, I let my mind open to other possibilities and realized the lunacy in my prior beliefs. Don't take that as an attack either.

 

I think the logic argument really weakens your position.

 

Here is why?

 

No way is it more logical that all creatures came about by pure chance because just the right amount of chemicals in the right quantities in the right combinations at the exact right moment was hit by a lightning bolt that had the right amount of electrical charge. And then from that speck of life, I guess or do you believe there were different puddles of goo hit with electrical charges to create other creatures, all creatures evolved into all the creatures that we see today.

 

A person who is reading this debate wanted me to pass on the point that a single strand of DNA carries enough information to fill up, I believe, it was thousands of encyclopedias. And you think it is MORE LOGICAL that it happened by a mere CHANCE that a lightning bolt hit where it hit.

 

That is an argument that I would agree with you has NO LOGIC behind it.

 

I will grant you this, your faith has to be greater than ours, because your position requires A HUGMONGOUS AMOUNT OF FAITH to believe.

 

Our position has historical references to support it.

 

Your position has a scientific theory that cannot be proven.

So what is the need for faith? Why does God realy so much on faith?

We are created in God’s image. God operates by faith, so should we. That’s how we were designed to function best. God created the entire universe by faithfully speaking it into existence. For whatever reason, He wants us to operate by faith as well.

Believe me - I don't feel as though you are making fun of me. I have been in your shoes before to. I was a faithful member of CG's "flock" once before and I used to debate your side of things until I later realized that I had absolutely no logic on my side and had to continually turn to "It takes faith!", and "God is not to be questioned."

 

As I got older and went through highschool and college, I let my mind open to other possibilities and realized the lunacy in my prior beliefs. Don't take that as an attack either.

The only people I know that say, "God is not to be questioned" are people unsure of the answers... or people afraid of the truth. I know of nowhere in the Bible we are commanded-much less instructed-not to question God. He is big enough to handle our questions. I've questioned Him for many years. I have not found His answers to be illogical. In fact, it is His answers that have built my faith.

 

Whether a devout believer, agnostic or atheist, we are all made to operate by faith. We all believe in things that we cannot see or prove empirically. At some point, we're all going to learn whose faith was most accurately focused.

The only people I know that say, "God is not to be questioned" are people unsure of the answers... or people afraid of the truth. I know of nowhere in the Bible we are commanded-much less instructed-not to question God. He is big enough to handle our questions. I've questioned Him for many years. I have not found His answers to be illogical. In fact, it is His answers that have built my faith.

 

Whether a devout believer, agnostic or atheist, we are all made to operate by faith. We all believe in things that we cannot see or prove empirically. At some point, we're all going to learn whose faith was most accurately focused.

 

Have a question for you to clarify the bold. Did that logical answer happen immediately to your questions or did sometimes take days, months, even years to see the plan that God had on the issue and the logic of it?

FrontRowFan, I have read your posts and see where you say you are an agnostic. This should indicate you question the existance of God. But the only questions you have raised is the existance of "GC", even throwing Ghandhi into the mix. The question is are you agnostic or anti-Christian?

Have a question for you to clarify the bold. Did that logical answer happen immediately to your questions or did sometimes take days, months, even years to see the plan that God had on the issue and the logic of it?

Both... and every variation in between. There have been times I have sought God and His presence and answers were right there, right then. There have been other times I have had to struggle through situations and circumstances, continuing to seek and knock before the answer eventually came. There are many other things I have had to grow and learn and live and pray through for years before God's wisdom and plan became clear.

 

One thing I do know is that God definitely answers our sincere prayers. He is not afraid of our questions... although we may not always be comfortable with His answers. Early on, it seemed that God's timing was never close to my timing. The older I have become, and the closer I have walked with Him, it seems I am more in tune with His pace and flow. Not always... but definitely closer. I do have the confidence that He will provide the answers I seek, and that His timing is perfect. Faith is not blind when it is built upon trust. I trust in God because even though I let Him down continually, He has never let me down.

 

Matthew 7:7-11 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

 

James 1:2-8 "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."

FrontRowFan, I have read your posts and see where you say you are an agnostic. This should indicate you question the existance of God. But the only questions you have raised is the existance of "GC", even throwing Ghandhi into the mix. The question is are you agnostic or anti-Christian?

 

That's a good question and a tough one for me to answer and I will tell you why.

 

I do question the existence of a God. Actually, I question the ability to know if there is a God or not. I find nothing that would suggest that there is 100% a God and I find nothing that would suggest that there is 100% not a God.

 

I do not think I am "anti-Christian" because I enjoy a lot of Christian people. I am friends with many. I attend church occasionally and typically enjoy most of what I hear. There is a lot of good and charitable things that come from the Christian faith. That said, and if you have read my thoughts as you have suggested you will most likely have came across this, I do not believe that "CG" exists as described in the Bible. I can not fathom a God that would punish his creations as CG is described as doing in the Bible. And, as I have said repeatedly, I would not worship such a God if it were proven that a God such as that existed.

 

So in conclusion, I guess you could say I am not anti-Christian so much as I am "ant-Christian God."

The only people I know that say, "God is not to be questioned" are people unsure of the answers... or people afraid of the truth. I know of nowhere in the Bible we are commanded-much less instructed-not to question God. He is big enough to handle our questions. I've questioned Him for many years. I have not found His answers to be illogical. In fact, it is His answers that have built my faith.

 

Whether a devout believer, agnostic or atheist, we are all made to operate by faith. We all believe in things that we cannot see or prove empirically. At some point, we're all going to learn whose faith was most accurately focused.

 

But, FB, "Faith" is being unsure of the answer. As you said, at some point we're going to learn who was right and who was wrong...and rather we wish to admit it either of us knows any more about who is right than the other one.

But, FB, "Faith" is being unsure of the answer. As you said, at some point we're going to learn who was right and who was wrong...and rather we wish to admit it either of us knows any more about who is right than the other one.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

 

Best definition of faith I've ever heard.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

 

Best definition of faith I've ever heard.

 

Too bad its impossible of being certain of the God that you do not see, or of what you "hope for." In fact, there's no certainity in it at all. If there was, it would not be "faith"

But, FB, "Faith" is being unsure of the answer. As you said, at some point we're going to learn who was right and who was wrong...and rather we wish to admit it either of us knows any more about who is right than the other one.

Being uncertain of what the answer is does nothing to negate the existence of the answer. The answer is there. It's up to us to find it.

 

Orville and Wilbur Wright had faith they could figure out how to fly. People told them they were crazy for believing in something that everyone regarded as impossible the entire history of mankind.

 

Galileo had faith that his discoveries in astronomy proved that the earth and planets revolved around the sun, even though the Roman Catholic Church and virtually all scientists of his day believed that the earth was the center of the universe. The Church forced Galileo to recant and placed him under house arrest the final eight years of his life. It wasn't until 360 years later (1992) that the Church formally acknowledged its error.

 

The laws of thermodynamics dictate that the total amount of disorder is always increasing and yet, evolutionists insist that we share their faith that highly organized complex life forms arose out of total chaos. I prefer to place my faith in, "And God said..."

 

I don't have to know how to engineer a bridge to entrust it to support my weight from one side to the other. Do bridges collapse and fail? Absolutely... but the fact that a certain bridge has supported me hundreds of previous trips allows my "faith" in that bridge to let me test it one more time. The fact that I'm here posting vindicates the faith I've placed in that bridge for over 40 years.