Wow...

 

This pretty much says it all.:thumb:

If we believe in eternal life, it would seem logical that we would be on equally firm ground to ask for the prayers of those who have moved on to the "next level" as we would be to ask for the prayers of those who remain on this level with us.

There are a lot of logical things that don't happen. Two very good friends of mine were sold out for Christ. Both were teachers and could have done worlds of wonder for His Kingdom. Both died of cancer and never made it out of their twenties.

 

Nothing logical in that.

 

But I accept that the Lord did not answer our prayers and the congregation's prayers and the prayers of our community in completely healing these two wonderful young ladies. There was a reason the Lord felt the need to not heal these two. LOGICALLY, don't know what it is.

 

So, while I understand your point, I do know that God told me in Scripture that His ways is not our ways and he was the one who put the stars in the heaven and I cannot understand all of His calls on things.

 

So, I have always felt that it is dangerous to take LBBC's logically way of thinking and squeeze God into it. If we did, we would ALL have our children attending Christian private schools and this Prop 20 split would be meaningless.

The Catholic Tradition of eating His body and His blood is what opened the gates of Heaven, and without it they would be closed.

 

I also heard that the Catholic Church (with assistance from Al Gore) invented the internet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To address some of the questions regarding why Catholics pray to saints, and the reverence of Mary by Catholics:

 

After much reading, and some discussion with a priest:

 

 

Some very basic questions need to be asked:

 

Do you believe that the prayers of the living on your behalf can impact the outcome of an intercession?

Do you ask for prayers from your friends, family or faith community when there are times of crisis, etc?

If the prayers of the living can intercede to God on our behalf, why not those that have gone before us and we believe to be in Heaven with God already?

Would not their prayers of intercession also be considered as valuable, if not more, of those of theliving?

Saints are not "worshiped", they are HONORED. The same with Mary, but she is revered even futher for her selection by God to be the Mother of His Son.

 

To me, it's a very simple, logical conclusion drawn from the belief in Salvation and the belief that we have souls, and there is a Heaven. If we have souls, it stands to reason that the soul's ability to intercede is actually enhanced by the fact that it has ascended into Heaven and is in the presence of God already.

 

Very good topic of discussion. Probably more than enough for its own thread. I've never considered the praying to Saints much one way or the other, and the points you make are logical and worth consideration. I have to admit I had a preconceived notion about the practice of praying to Mary and I am going to try and clean my slate of that and then study the topic with an open mind. I am very interested in this and will be studying this for my own enlightenment in the days to come.

 

Thanks for the effort you have put into all this rockmom. I've learned quite a lot, even if I haven't really participated much in the thread.

:laugh: One would think that our mod's would at least show some respect to someone giving their beliefs.

 

I, for one, respect someone's right to present their beliefs on here. I do not have to respect the beliefs themselves. The prior post smacked of "truth is what you make of it," which I abhor, and the last sentence was, coining it nicely, rather elitist. I don't have to respect that and won't.

 

I have always found the statement "my opinion is just as valid as yours" to be very strange. I don't think all opinions are valid.

Very good topic of discussion. Probably more than enough for its own thread. I've never considered the praying to Saints much one way or the other, and the points you make are logical and worth consideration. I have to admit I had a preconceived notion about the practice of praying to Mary and I am going to try and clean my slate of that and then study the topic with an open mind. I am very interested in this and will be studying this for my own enlightenment in the days to come.

 

Thanks for the effort you have put into all this rockmom. I've learned quite a lot, even if I haven't really participated much in the thread.

 

:thumb:

 

 

Revelation 5:8:

 

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

If saints pray, then isn't it logical to ask them to pray for us? I don't think they'd be praying for themselves, as they have already achieved Heaven.

And two scriptural references with regard the honor due to Mary:

 

"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, ‘Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?’" (Luke 1:41-43).

 

"And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name’" (Luke 1:46-49).

Not to threadjack but part of this acceptance process is baptism.

:thumb:

Yes. It shows obedience. It pictures the gospel. The death, burial and resurrection. It gains us membership into a church. However, it has nothing to do with salvation.

 

Then tell me what Acts 2:38 says.

Very good topic of discussion. Probably more than enough for its own thread. I've never considered the praying to Saints much one way or the other, and the points you make are logical and worth consideration. I have to admit I had a preconceived notion about the practice of praying to Mary and I am going to try and clean my slate of that and then study the topic with an open mind. I am very interested in this and will be studying this for my own enlightenment in the days to come.

 

Thanks for the effort you have put into all this rockmom. I've learned quite a lot, even if I haven't really participated much in the thread.

 

Honestly, the Catholic treatment/teaching of Mary is the only thing that I can't come to terms with. Some of the statements they make about here are not biblically grounded, IMO, which is why I can't agree with it. I think RM has done a pretty good job of stating the Catholic views on the pope, praying to saints, etc...stating the case and defending it. And I appreciate it, because it has allowed me to understand it better and accept it. I'm not going to start practicing those beliefs in my own life, but I have no problem or fault with one who does.

 

Nice thread...if I've offended anyone, I apologize. I know I may have overstepped once or twice, and for that I apologize, specifically to Rockmom. :thumb:

"Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (I Corithians 7:27-34).

 

"Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was really busy this weekend!

Have I missed anything over the past couple of days?

 

Seriously, I would like to keep this thread focused on the first post. This is not about attacking the Catholic Church. If you have questions or concerns about particular practices of any faith, then please start a thread about it. This goes for all religions. Just remember that discussion of any religous practices must be done in a manner that seeks understanding or gives criticism from a well thought out point of view, preferably with resources. Remarks like "Catholics are all drunks" "Most Baptists die of boredom" "If you're Jewish, you're going to Hell" etc, aren't going to cut it. Be able to backup your criticism if you're going to post.

 

Thanks to the Mods who have helped keep this thread on topic.

:thumb:

 

 

Revelation 5:8:

 

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

If saints pray, then isn't it logical to ask them to pray for us? I don't think they'd be praying for themselves, as they have already achieved Heaven.

 

I guess it depends on how you define saint, right? What is the Catholic definition of a saint? I ask because your post seems to imply that a person must be dead to be a saint.

 

The Bible defines a saint as anyone who is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ...that includes people who are currently alive.

 

In his letters to believers, Paul repeatedly addressed the recepients as saints.

 

Romans 1:1-7 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle...To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints.

 

1 Corinthians 1:1-2 Paul, called to an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God...To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints....

 

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in Achaia:

 

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi...

 

Colossians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ...To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse:

I also want to make clear that I was not intentionally singling you out either Pep. I actually like you a lot from your posts over the years. It was you, after all who introduced me to the humor of Homestar Runner... :lol:

 

 

Then I did my jorb well.

Then I did my jorb well.

That you did Sir... that you did. :lol:

 

:laugh: One would think that our mod's would at least show some respect to someone giving their beliefs.

In my first post in this thread I stated:

I truly respect everyone's choice to approach God in the manner they deem best.

I genuinely mean this. If I am to expect the same freedom and privilege in my life, I must be willing to extend them to others. In agreement with Hearsay, respecting one’s right to choose how they should worship is not (nor should it be) the same as agreeing with the methods and beliefs so applied. I don’t expect you to agree with me, nor do I have to agree with you to show you my respect.

 

The “Wow!” I expressed in response to ColonelFan999’s post was not intended to mock. I felt like I had just had my knuckles rapped with a ruler following his enumeration of objections which concluded with:

With all respect, until you understand this point, this discussion is probably fruitless.

It came across as, “Until you understand my point and agree with me, we have nothing else to discuss.” I understand the point all too well… I simply disagree.

 

You make some valid points, and due to the fact that I am not nearly as well-versed as you on the subject, not completely sure of it myself as I need to have more discussions on it, coupled with the fact that I am much younger than you, I will have to agree to disagree.

 

I wish that I had the intelligence to prove you wrong, but as I sit here in thought I find that all I have are my slightly underdeveloped beliefs.

First of all, it seems that everyone is younger than me… :lol: Secondly, we moderators do not have any special ability to know who each member is, how old they may be, or if they are experts in their field. I’m not Catholic. For all I knew, you could have been an elder or a priest in your church expressing accepted doctrine. I responded to the merits of your post, not your level of experience, age or authority.

 

While I appreciate your willingness to admit your limitations, (a rare commodity in most Religion threads) I don’t share your desire to prove someone wrong. I am not concerned with proving someone wrong. I can come up with wrong choices all day long… :lol:

 

What is important is that we identify the things we know are right, agree on them, and then move into areas that we may not quite see eye-to-eye, but can perhaps establish further common ground. We live in a world that is growing increasingly hostile to our Christian beliefs. We have radical Muslims that want us to convert or die. We have communist regimes in China, North Korea and elsewhere desiring to replace our worship of God with servitude to the state.

 

Abraham Lincoln quoted Jesus when he stated, “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” It is foolish for us to tear one another down, when we really should be finding ways to pull together under Christ, as the body of Christ.

 

This may not be a popular opinion, but I stand by it. :thumb: