I do too, but because we as humans are imperfect beings, you aren't going to find a church that is reaching it's full potential, IMO.

 

As the old saying goes, "If you find a perfect church, don't join it. You'll just ruin it."

:thumb:

I found this in my search of alternative religions.

 

The First Church of Elvis:

 

For unto you is born this day in the city of Memphis a Presley, which is Elvis the King.''

 

And Elvis saw them berating the poor recording artist, whose music was terrible and lyrics insipid, and Lo, the King said unto the mob:

`Let him who is without bad singles cast the first rhinestone.'

 

And the mob turned down their eyes, each considering his own Don't Worry Be Happy or Man in the Mirror, and shuffled off.

`Thank you,' said Elvis. `Thank you very much.'

 

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden records; and in the midst of the seven golden records one like unto the Son of Zeke, clothed with a jumpsuit down to the foot, and girthed...er...girt about the paunch with rhinestones. His hairs were black like vinyl, as black as Brilcream; and his eyes, how they twinkled, his dimples, how merry...

 

``Who is this King of Rock-n-Roll? The Lord of Hostess, he is the King of Rock-n-Roll. Shaboom.''

 

And Elvis so loved the world that he died, fat and bloated, in a bathroom.

 

He very pointedly did not rise from the dead three days later, but was nonetheless seen across the world by various and sundry housewives.

 

Create your own Ain't Nuthin' Butta Hound-Dogmas, but be sure to stay out of the Sacred Heartbreak Hotel, where darned souls twinkle like stars in the night, each a Hunka Hunka Burnin' Love.

 

``Return, we beseech the, O Lord of Hostess: look down from Heaven, and behold, and visit this mall...''

I don't have a real problem with a de facto leader. I have a problem with kissing rings and feet, etc...borderline worship, if you will...placing titles and honors upon them that they shouldn't have...attributing powers to them that they don't have. That's all.

 

I respect and look up to my pastor, but you'll never see me kiss his ring or his feet. You'll never hear me say he is infallible in any way, shape or form and you'll never hear me say he has the power to forgive sins. :thumb:

 

Well, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on the traditions of our Faith. We don't worship him. I don't know how much clearer I could make this. There are traditions dating back centuries that we still uphold, but we do NOT worship him in any way shape or form. As to attributing powers to him thathe doesn't have, again, we'll agree to disagree, because I believe, as my Faith teaches me, that the Pope alone is infallible.

 

As to forgiveness of sins, (neither) the Pope, nor the Priest forgives the sins. God forgives the sins.

I wouldn't ever say, "I told you so", that would be against what the bible teaches and judgmental. But I do believe that God did describe how a church should be organized and operate in the bible.

I've given this some thought since you posted and here's what I see in the Bible. It was intended that the church would be made up of small local groups of believers. These small local churches would have mentors (Paul, Barnabas, etc.) These mentors would not lead the local church, but move from town to town, checking up on their churches to see if all was well. I don't think Christianity was ever meant to be a large organized religion. I think it was designed for small intimate groups to learn and worship, to aid each other and outsiders, and to send its members out to start new churches.

And how do you view his role? I know you've stated it in various posts, but could you summarize for us?

 

The leader of the Catholic Church.

Divinely inspired (thus infallible) in translating Scripture to doctrine.

Well, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on the traditions of our Faith. We don't worship him. I don't know how much clearer I could make this. There are traditions dating back centuries that we still uphold, but we do NOT worship him in any way shape or form. As to attributing powers to him thathe doesn't have, again, we'll agree to disagree, because I believe, as my Faith teaches me, that the Pope alone is infallible.

 

As to forgiveness of sins, the Pope, nor the Priest forgives the sins. God forgives the sins.

 

I didn't say you worship him. That's why I added the word borderline.

 

In any case, I'm not interested in getting into this debate again because I know we won't agree. :thumb:

I've given this some thought since you posted and here's what I see in the Bible. It was intended that the church would be made up of small local groups of believers. These small local churches would have mentors (Paul, Barnabas, etc.) These mentors would not lead the local church, but move from town to town, checking up on their churches to see if all was well. I don't think Christianity was ever meant to be a large organized religion. I think it was designed for small intimate groups to learn and worship, to aid each other and outsiders, and to send its members out to start new churches.

 

Agreed, :thumb:

The leader of the Catholic Church.

Divinely inspired (thus infallible) in translating Scripture to doctrine.

 

I will have to agree to disagree on the infallible part, sorry.

I've given this some thought since you posted and here's what I see in the Bible. It was intended that the church would be made up of small local groups of believers. These small local churches would have mentors (Paul, Barnabas, etc.) These mentors would not lead the local church, but move from town to town, checking up on their churches to see if all was well. I don't think Christianity was ever meant to be a large organized religion. I think it was designed for small intimate groups to learn and worship, to aid each other and outsiders, and to send its members out to start new churches.

 

Sounds Baptist to me.

I found this in my search of alternative religions.

 

The First Church of Elvis:

 

For unto you is born this day in the city of Memphis a Presley, which is Elvis the King.''

 

And Elvis saw them berating the poor recording artist, whose music was terrible and lyrics insipid, and Lo, the King said unto the mob:

`Let him who is without bad singles cast the first rhinestone.'

 

And the mob turned down their eyes, each considering his own Don't Worry Be Happy or Man in the Mirror, and shuffled off.

`Thank you,' said Elvis. `Thank you very much.'

 

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden records; and in the midst of the seven golden records one like unto the Son of Zeke, clothed with a jumpsuit down to the foot, and girthed...er...girt about the paunch with rhinestones. His hairs were black like vinyl, as black as Brilcream; and his eyes, how they twinkled, his dimples, how merry...

 

``Who is this King of Rock-n-Roll? The Lord of Hostess, he is the King of Rock-n-Roll. Shaboom.''

 

And Elvis so loved the world that he died, fat and bloated, in a bathroom.

 

He very pointedly did not rise from the dead three days later, but was nonetheless seen across the world by various and sundry housewives.

 

Create your own Ain't Nuthin' Butta Hound-Dogmas, but be sure to stay out of the Sacred Heartbreak Hotel, where darned souls twinkle like stars in the night, each a Hunka Hunka Burnin' Love.

 

:thumb:

 

Speaking of alternate religions; this from the March 8, 2005 Catholic New Times:

 

Religion as Baseball

 

Calvinists believe the game is fixed.

Lutherans believe they can't win, but trust the Scorekeeper.

Quakers wont' swing.

Unitarians can catch anything.

Amish walk a lot.

Pagans sacrifice.

Jehovah's Witnesses are thrown out often.

Televangelists get caught stealing.

Episcopalians pass the plate.

Evangelicals make effective pitches.

F Adventists have a seventh-inning stretch.

Atheists refuse to have an Umpire.

Baptists want to play hardball.

Pre-millenialists expect the game to be called soon

on account of darkness.

The Pope claims never to have committed an error.

:thumb:

 

Speaking of alternate religions; this from the March 8, 2005 Catholic New Times:

 

Religion as Baseball

 

The Pope claims never to have committed an error.

 

It is true. Rockmom said so.

This thread got me thinking about one of my all-time favorite jokes related to religion. It's from Emo Phillips. I believe it is very apropos.

 

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips

This thread got me thinking about one of my all-time favorite jokes related to religion. It's from Emo Phillips. I believe it is very apropos.

 

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips

:laugh:

Well, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on the traditions of our Faith. We don't worship him. I don't know how much clearer I could make this. There are traditions dating back centuries that we still uphold, but we do NOT worship him in any way shape or form. As to attributing powers to him thathe doesn't have, again, we'll agree to disagree, because I believe, as my Faith teaches me, that the Pope alone is infallible.

 

As to forgiveness of sins, (neither) the Pope, nor the Priest forgives the sins. God forgives the sins.

 

When did the pope get voted on as being infallible? Jesus made no mention of it.

When did the pope get voted on as being infallible? Jesus made no mention of it.

 

 

????

 

Voted on????

 

:confused: :confused: :confused:

 

"He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16),

and

"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18)

 

 

An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question. Most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Catholics.

 

Pick up a catechism and look at the great number of doctrines, most of which have never been formally defined. But many points have been defined, and not just by the pope alone. There are, in fact, many major topics on which it would be impossible for a pope to make an infallible definition without duplicating one or more infallible pronouncements from ecumenical councils or the ordinary magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church.

 

It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.

 

Of course, infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t "neglect" to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church.