On a side note, Mother Theresa was an excellent Christian, and a phenomenal person, but some parts of her Catholicism were shaky, as in the April 1996 Ladies Home Journal where she stated that she was happy that Princess Diana got a divorce.

 

I would also like to completely retract this statement, and would appreciate it if a mod could go ahead and delete this part of it on post 214.

Haha lol that's great.

It might be if there wasn't a profound misunderstanding of the way the Catholic church teaches people to have a personal relationship with God as well as a relationship with the community of the church. In fact the funniest part is the fact that whoever made up the joke is doing so from a complete and total misunderstanding of the role of clergy in the church.

I've stayed out of this as long as I could, but here goes.

 

When Benedict said that other denominations do not have the means to salvation, he did not mean that non-Catholics can not go to Heaven. What he is saying is that without the Catholic Church, there would be no salvation for anyone.

I truly respect everyone's choice to approach God in the manner they deem best. That said, if this is truly what the Pope meant, I humbly but firmly disagree.

 

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

Call me crazy, but the way I read it, I do not need any other human standing between God and me. This is not arrogance or pride in myself, but a genuine desire to come to God with as few filters as possible.

Jesus gave his life to open the gates of Heaven, and he founded a Church to continue His sacrifice- in the Holy Eucharist- to keep those gates of Heaven open.

This passage of Hebrews, imakes it clear that the sacrifice of the body of Jesus was a ONE TIME, all sufficient sacrifice. There is no need to sacrifice him over and over again.

 

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

A Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Protestant, or anyone else can attain Heaven by following their set of moral codes and rules. But without the Catholic church, there wouldn't be a Heaven at all.

Again, with all due respect, I disagree:

 

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

It's not just a bunch of conservative fundamentalists who cooked up the idea of spiritual exclusivity. This idea began with Jesus.

 

I truly do not understand elevating the Church above the Lord. Perhaps that's not what you intend to state here, but that is certainly how it comes across.

Finally, Benedict did not make this up, and it is not his view. This is the view of the Church, and it has been forever; Pope Benedict has simply reaffirmed it.

And this is why when the Bible became available in a language common men could read and understand, there was a Protestant Revolution.

 

I beleive a simple fisherman or carpenter has just as much authority to understand scripture as the highly educated and religously trained. The entire New Testament affirms this. :thumb:

Fastbreak...you quoted scripture, and thats what I've doing and others to make our points. The author of the Bible is God himself.

I've stayed out of this as long as I could, but here goes.

 

I truly respect everyone's choice to approach God in the manner they deem best. That said, if this is truly what the Pope meant, I humbly but firmly disagree.

 

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

Call me crazy, but the way I read it, I do not need any other human standing between God and me. This is not arrogance or pride in myself, but a genuine desire to come to God with as few filters as possible.

This passage of Hebrews, imakes it clear that the sacrifice of the body of Jesus was a ONE TIME, all sufficient sacrifice. There is no need to sacrifice him over and over again.

 

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

Again, with all due respect, I disagree:

 

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

It's not just a bunch of conservative fundamentalists who cooked up the idea of spiritual exclusivity. This idea began with Jesus.

 

I truly do not understand elevating the Church above the Lord. Perhaps that's not what you intend to state here, but that is certainly how it comes across.

And this is why when the Bible became available in a language common men could read and understand, there was a Protestant Revolution.

 

I beleive a simple fisherman or carpenter has just as much authority to understand scripture as the highly educated and religously trained. The entire New Testament affirms this. :thumb:

 

Amen! Glad you decided to join us...

 

I'm just curious. Did I miss the part of the Catechism where the Catholic Church created heaven? If they did, then there may have been no need to correct the practice of selling indulgences...:eek:

Fastbreak...you quoted scripture, and thats what I've doing and others to make our points. The author of the Bible is God himself.

 

Really? Must have missed that on the title page.

One of the reasons I stayed out of this thread for the first 300+ posts is the tendency of these things to turn into catty, us vs. them arguments.

 

Like it or not folks, we're all in this together, and so far, none of us has gotten out of here alive.

 

If God truly exists, and Jesus Christ is really His son, it would be beneficial if those of us who believe these principles could realize we're all part of the same family and find some common ground rather than feeling superior that our side has an inside track.

 

Really? Must have missed that on the title page.

It appears that the Apostle Paul agrees with Larry...

 

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

I think a good thread would be to discuss the points that Protestants and Catholics do agree upon. :thumb:

One of the reasons I stayed out of this thread for the first 300+ posts is the tendency of these things to turn into catty, us vs. them arguments.

 

Like it or not folks, we're all in this together, and so far, none of us has gotten out of here alive.

 

If God truly exists, and Jesus Christ is really His son, it would be beneficial if those of us who believe these principles could realize we're all part of the same family and find some common ground rather than feeling superior that our side has an inside track.

 

It appears that the Apostle Paul agrees with Larry...

 

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

I think a good thread would be to discuss the points that Protestants and Catholics do agree upon. :thumb:

I agree that everyone who has been born again and saved by the grace of God is a part of the family of God. However, the Lord did not give us 66 books of the Bible, 39 in the old testament and 27 in the new testament, with all of its various teaching and doctrines for which the Bible claims to be the source of our doctrine, correction and righteousness, just to be disregarded, or even taken lightly. While Salvation is the most important issue taught in the Scriptures there are many other teachings that the Holy Spirit has seen fit to reveal to us. I think it would behoove us to take heed.

One of the reasons I stayed out of this thread for the first 300+ posts is the tendency of these things to turn into catty, us vs. them arguments.

 

Like it or not folks, we're all in this together, and so far, none of us has gotten out of here alive.

 

If God truly exists, and Jesus Christ is really His son, it would be beneficial if those of us who believe these principles could realize we're all part of the same family and find some common ground rather than feeling superior that our side has an inside track.

 

It appears that the Apostle Paul agrees with Larry...

 

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

I think a good thread would be to discuss the points that Protestants and Catholics do agree upon. :thumb:

 

Given by INSPIRIATION is a little different from being written by. It really all comes down on how you interpret the word inspiration. Does that mean dictation? Does it mean that those who wrote it were inspired by the spirit? Herein is the biggest difference really. God, in all his magnificience, is completely incomprehensible to man in our limited form. We are lucky to have the smidgen of understanding we do have. That said once having received the inspiritation the men who wrote those books in the bible may not have fully understood it or how to best related it to those of us who came after. This is the reason that, when reading the Bible, I always take into account the background of the writer, the historical context, who was being written to and why.

 

I don't believe inspiration means dictation.

 

To the bolded/italicized text, I tend to avoid these as well on account of that. I have done my utmost to not be that way at all in here, and for those of you that know me that is an accomplishment. My underlying frustrations with these discussions is that no matter how much we explain it or take into account that all of these items are matters of faith, someone inevitably more or less implies(subtley) how wrong it is to be Catholic and the level of disdain with which it is implied is moderately frustrating to say the least. I jumped in this thread at rockmom's behest because I knew she was going crazy after having to do this two weeks straight. That said, that was a sarcastic tone on my part, which is nothing new for me no matter the topic. In fact anyone who argues with me in the football forum knows that very well.

 

To the underlined/itaicized text, I agree whoeheartedly. Which is one of the reasons that I get frustrated with these discussions. I have had these same discussions, debates and discourses many many times over with SBTS students. Half the time I feel like they are sizing me up to see where I hide my horns and spiked tail before I go sacrifice a goat to a statue. Gawking when they talk to me because they have never seen a Catholic before and are surprised that I actualy seem human. Do I exaggerate here? Slightly. I have had wonderful discussions and interactions with SBTS students where I walk away knowing we really aren't s different and can get along/cohexist quite happily. Other times I feel the urge to call for a Crusade on account of the inability to be open to what I am saying.

 

None of this invective is really focused on any individual here, it is more or less a culmination of years of frustration.

Not to threadjack but part of this acceptance process is baptism.

Yes. It shows obedience. It pictures the gospel. The death, burial and resurrection. It gains us membership into a church. However, it has nothing to do with salvation.

None of this invective is really focused on any individual here, it is more or less a culmination of years of frustration.

I also want to make clear that I was not intentionally singling you out either Pep. I actually like you a lot from your posts over the years. It was you, after all who introduced me to the humor of Homestar Runner... :lol:

 

My point is that while one group or another may have a good handle on certain aspects of the Gospel, others may be strong in other areas. As believers in and followers of Jesus Christ, we are indeed like various parts of one body. It is foolish for an eye to put down an ear, or a foot to look down upon a hand.

 

I don't understand the thinking that leads a hand to tell all the other parts of the body that unless they too become a hand, they are not valuable to the body.

I've stayed out of this as long as I could, but here goes.

 

I truly respect everyone's choice to approach God in the manner they deem best. That said, if this is truly what the Pope meant, I humbly but firmly disagree.

 

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

Call me crazy, but the way I read it, I do not need any other human standing between God and me. This is not arrogance or pride in myself, but a genuine desire to come to God with as few filters as possible.

This passage of Hebrews, imakes it clear that the sacrifice of the body of Jesus was a ONE TIME, all sufficient sacrifice. There is no need to sacrifice him over and over again.

 

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

Again, with all due respect, I disagree:

 

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

It's not just a bunch of conservative fundamentalists who cooked up the idea of spiritual exclusivity. This idea began with Jesus.

 

I truly do not understand elevating the Church above the Lord. Perhaps that's not what you intend to state here, but that is certainly how it comes across.

And this is why when the Bible became available in a language common men could read and understand, there was a Protestant Revolution.

 

I beleive a simple fisherman or carpenter has just as much authority to understand scripture as the highly educated and religously trained. The entire New Testament affirms this. :thumb:

 

You make some valid points, and due to the fact that I am not nearly as well-versed as you on the subject, not completely sure of it myself as I need to have more discussions on it, coupled with the fact that I am much younger than you, I will have to agree to disagree.

 

I wish that I had the intelligence to prove you wrong, but as I sit here in thought I find that all I have are my slightly underdeveloped beliefs.

 

The one thing that I will say is that the Bible states is this:

 

John 6:53....

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

 

The Catholic Tradition of eating His body and His blood is what opened the gates of Heaven, and without it they would be closed.

 

Paging rockmom, paging rockmom, I need help....

I don’t understand Catholics. If the Pope is chosen by God and has ultimate authority to interoperate the Bible, then how do other Catholics disagree with him? Isn’t this the same as disagreeing with God?

:thumb: My thoughts exact.

I don’t understand Catholics. If the Pope is chosen by God and has ultimate authority to interoperate the Bible, then how do other Catholics disagree with him? Isn’t this the same as disagreeing with God?

The Pope in Communion with the Bishops as the ultimate authority.

 

I'm a Catholic, and I agree with the Pope. Do you not understand me?

I've stayed out of this as long as I could, but here goes.

 

I truly respect everyone's choice to approach God in the manner they deem best. That said, if this is truly what the Pope meant, I humbly but firmly disagree.

 

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

Call me crazy, but the way I read it, I do not need any other human standing between God and me. This is not arrogance or pride in myself, but a genuine desire to come to God with as few filters as possible.

This passage of Hebrews, imakes it clear that the sacrifice of the body of Jesus was a ONE TIME, all sufficient sacrifice. There is no need to sacrifice him over and over again.

 

 

 

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

For the most part I agree with you. Please note however, that we Catholics are not sacrificing him over and over again, but instead are re-presenting the same single Sacrifice as he commanded us to do.

 

Again, with all due respect, I disagree:

 

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

It's not just a bunch of conservative fundamentalists who cooked up the idea of spiritual exclusivity. This idea began with Jesus.

 

I truly do not understand elevating the Church above the Lord. Perhaps that's not what you intend to state here, but that is certainly how it comes across.

 

Clearly it would be ridiculous to elevate the Church above the Lord. Lets make sure we see things as they are. The Lord founded the Church. The Church gave us the Bible. The Lord left his authority to his Church, not to a book that had not even been written at the time of Jesus's death.

 

As for only Christians making it to Heaven, what kind of a God would create a person only to condemn him to hell without any chance at salvation?

 

And this is why when the Bible became available in a language common men could read and understand, there was a Protestant Revolution.

There was a Protestant Revolution because Martin Luther in an effort to correct various abuses determined that he, and not the vicar of Christ, the holder of the keys, knew better. Going directly against Scripture, he privately interpreted the Bible, he changed the wording of Scripture, and he disregarded 1500 years of teaching that had come from the Apostles.

 

 

I beleive a simple fisherman or carpenter has just as much authority to understand scripture as the highly educated and religously trained. The entire New Testament affirms this. :thumb:

 

In the 1st Letter of Peter, all of us, i.e. fishermen, carpenters, and highly educated people are warned not to privately interpret Scripture. Remember that Scripture itself confirms that the Church is the bulwark of our faith- not the Bible.

 

With all respect, until you understand this point, this discussion is probably fruitless.