2 hours ago, Jumper_Dad said:

1. It is illegal for Charles Manson or any convicted felon to own or purchase a firearm now. Every gun store in America by law has to submit info from the 4473 to NICS (or state equivalent) for a background check before selling a weapon. The exception being if for example they have a concealed carry permit in a state like Kentucky. 

2. Apples and oranges comparison. Nearly all traffic fatalities come from driving a vehicle in an unsafe manner. Making drivers get a license ensures they know the basic rules of the road and how to safely operate a car. Gun deaths from accidents is very minimal percentage of total gun deaths. Just like being a licensed driver didn't prevent the guy from driving into a parade killing several, a gun license would not stop intentional bad acts.

3. Let's start by enforcing current gun laws.

Stiffer penalties (more jail time) for gun related crimes.

Thousands of people lie on the 4473 form each year trying to purchase a firearm, that is a federal crime but is rarely if ever prosecuted. 

All of the laws that could ever be written can not change the hearts of those wanting to do ill to others. I understand the feelings that something needs to be done. But why punish legal law abiding gun owners for the acts of criminals and deranged individuals. Looking at your gun and car analogy, we never hear calls to make it harder to get a car or more training is needed when a drunk wrecks and kills others. 

In the case of the recent school shooting, better physical security probably would have saved lives. Having an armed School Resource Officer probably would have saved lives. 

The hardest thing to comprehend is that if someone truly wants to kill others and is prepared to do it, that is hard nearly impossible to prevent in soft locations like workplaces and public gathering places like stores and malls. Afterall some of the the worst loss of life or tragic events that I can remember were carried out by pressure cookers, box cutters, fertilizer and vehicles running into crowds. It's easy to demonize guns and even gun owners...let's demonize the hearts and thoughts of these evil individuals instead and see where the breakdowns with each of them were. 

1. You made my point. We have gun laws. Everyone is ok with gun laws, as you reinforce in your #3. There is no reason why we should not consider more laws to protect everyone.

2. You make the case here that guns are much more dangerous than vehicles. Vehicle deaths are from accidents. Gun deaths are not. All the more reason why there should be more rules on gun ownership than owning and operating a vehicle.

No, we will never stop mass killings and murders. Impossible. The goal is to reduce them, hopefully significantly reduce them. I think we can do that and still have 2nd amendment rights that allow law abiding citizens access to guns.

12 hours ago, sportsfan41 said:

Great question.  I'd say at best it would have delayed it.  On the other side of the coin, should a woman with a stalker have to wait 30 to 60 days to get a gun to protect herself?

Not suggesting you were advocating for a waiting period.

There are several other options for this hypothetical woman to purchase in the meantime. 

1 hour ago, Voice of Reason said:

1. You made my point. We have gun laws. Everyone is ok with gun laws, as you reinforce in your #3. There is no reason why we should not consider more laws to protect everyone.

2. You make the case here that guns are much more dangerous than vehicles. Vehicle deaths are from accidents. Gun deaths are not. All the more reason why there should be more rules on gun ownership than owning and operating a vehicle.

No, we will never stop mass killings and murders. Impossible. The goal is to reduce them, hopefully significantly reduce them. I think we can do that and still have 2nd amendment rights that allow law abiding citizens access to guns.

Yes for the most part I'm fine with current gun laws and restrictions, I'm not for further restrictions on lawful ownership. 

Give me an example of a law that would do what you want that would protect everyone? 

What new rules would you have on gun ownership?

My point in the car comparison was that gun safety classes or licenses don't stop crime. Their intent is almost solely to prevent accidents. I don't see a gun safety class preventing anyone from committing a heinous crime.

I agree, in a country with as much freedom as we have there will always be the possibility that these things will happen. In my opinion that's more of a societal issue than a gun issue. People are growing up not being able to cope with their own emotions, not being able to cope with failure or not being able to accept criticism is leading more and more to lash out violently.

13 minutes ago, Jumper_Dad said:

I agree, in a country with as much freedom as we have there will always be the possibility that these things will happen. In my opinion that's more of a societal issue than a gun issue. People are growing up not being able to cope with their own emotions, not being able to cope with failure or not being able to accept criticism is leading more and more to lash out violently.

I believe this is 100% true. But alluding back to my original post we can’t strip away what you said without accounting for America’s bizarre gun culture and infatuation with guns = relative ease of accessibility. The reality is we have way too many guns out there (legally obtained or not) and there is no way to account for them all. This coming from someone that hunted growing up and obtained my concealed carry.
 

For every person that says they are fine being armed and defending themselves with a deadly weapon, there is another person that doesn’t believe this is a reasonable solution. And for those saying they are fine, they don’t really know that until they’re put in the situation. We shouldn’t accept that we live in the Hunger Games. But, maybe we do?

Mean people suck.

1 hour ago, bugatti said:

I believe this is 100% true. But alluding back to my original post we can’t strip away what you said without accounting for America’s bizarre gun culture and infatuation with guns = relative ease of accessibility. The reality is we have way too many guns out there (legally obtained or not) and there is no way to account for them all. This coming from someone that hunted growing up and obtained my concealed carry.

Mean people suck.

Which parts are bizarre? 

How would you make guns less accessible?

Why does it matter to anyone how many guns I own, why do they need to be accounted for? 

47 minutes ago, Jumper_Dad said:

Which parts are bizarre? 

How would you make guns less accessible?

Why does it matter to anyone how many guns I own, why do they need to be accounted for? 

Look, in America there are more guns than there are people. That ain’t on par with anyone else and it’s not close. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, but it’s bizarre, unique, or whatever adjective you want to use to describe America gun culture. I just know this issue is more important to a large segment than anything else on Earth. That’s strange to me. I get it, guns aren’t the problem, bad people that do bad things are, but I’m not sure how you (not saying specifically you) ignore policy and culture and think “hey, there is no way how we do things here is somewhat attributable.”

2 hours ago, bugatti said:

Look, in America there are more guns than there are people. That ain’t on par with anyone else and it’s not close. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, but it’s bizarre, unique, or whatever adjective you want to use to describe America gun culture. I just know this issue is more important to a large segment than anything else on Earth. That’s strange to me. I get it, guns aren’t the problem, bad people that do bad things are, but I’m not sure how you (not saying specifically you) ignore policy and culture and think “hey, there is no way how we do things here is somewhat attributable.”

I get what you are saying, but short of 100% confiscation I'm not sure what new law, regulation, training or guideline will stop them. Even then only the law abiding citizens would be the ones turning them in. 

I'll be all ears when someone comes up with a way to stop suicidal killers like we have seen too many times.

26 minutes ago, Jumper_Dad said:

I get what you are saying, but short of 100% confiscation I'm not sure what new law, regulation, training or guideline will stop them. Even then only the law abiding citizens would be the ones turning them in. 

I'll be all ears when someone comes up with a way to stop suicidal killers like we have seen too many times.

So your position is since we can’t completely eliminate them, we shouldn’t take further measures to minimize them?

2 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

So your position is since we can’t completely eliminate them, we shouldn’t take further measures to minimize them?

No, not at all. But if we take measures they should be measures that will actually impact these types of crimes. Everyone says we need to do something to stop this, I agree...I just ask, what new law will help?

18 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

I continue to think about what can be done to reduce the number of these shootings. 

1. Every person in the US approves of some gun law restrictions. Yes, everyone. Is there anyone who would be ok with Charles Manson getting out on parole and being allowed to walk straight to a gun shop and buy whatever weapon he wants? I don't think so. Ridiculous examples are made on both sides of this discussion but I believe the point I am making is true - everyone believes there should be some restrictions. The debate is about where the lines are drawn. How easy or difficult should it be and who should or should not be restricted?

2. About the same number of people die from guns and car accidents every year. To get a driver's license, we have testing, education, waiting periods, and other requirements. We license and restrict vehicles and the people who drive them a lot more than we restrict gun ownership. Why?

3. If the above is true, why is it taboo to add more restrictions? I wholeheartedly believe in the 2nd amendment but I want more restrictions on how guns are bought and owned.

Driving is something that's done daily, for most, for hours, for most.  Gun owners aren't walking around handling their guns even remotely close to the amount of time they're handling their cars.  How would responsible gun ownership classes deter the unhinged person with a gun?

8 hours ago, TheDeuce said:

There are several other options for this hypothetical woman to purchase in the meantime. 

Such as?

18 minutes ago, sportsfan41 said:

Such as?

I don’t need to list the other options, I’m sure you’re aware of all of them. 

11 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

I don’t need to list the other options, I’m sure you’re aware of all of them. 

I'm really not.  There's nothing adequate that I'd want my wife, mother, sister etc to have over a gun.  

3 minutes ago, sportsfan41 said:

I'm really not.  There's nothing adequate that I'd want my wife, mother, sister etc to have over a gun.  

Over a gun? Probably not… But in the meantime? There are certainly alternatives that could suffice during a waiting period. 

Or, they could get their license and not have to wait. 

49 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

Over a gun? Probably not… But in the meantime? There are certainly alternatives that could suffice during a waiting period. 

Or, they could get their license and not have to wait. 

So in your hypothetical,  someone with a concealed carry permit, doesn't have to wait when purchasing a gun?