Just now, ChickenWyngz said:

Bonds, Clemens, etc. did not break a rule during that time. Ben Johnson and Lance were able to skirt test results and did things that were documented as against the rules. 

Pete walked past a sign everyday telling him not to bet on the game and still made the phone call to make the bet. 

I don't like what they did, but I'm a firm believer in Pete being banished from the game. 

Bonds didn't know he was cheating? Why did he deny it? If it was ok, just say I am doing it and there is no rule against it.

34 minutes ago, ChickenWyngz said:

I can get on board with this. We'll never truly know, but only beating him by 7... there's a good chance the drugs kept him in the lineup everyday in order to account for 7, so I get it. 

HOFer regardless though. There were weeks that went by when Bonds saw 2-3 "hittable" pitches, and he didn't miss them. Steroids don't do that. 

Bonds walked/got HBP over 20% of his career plate appearances. More than 1 out of every 5 at bats, he didn't get pitches to hit, and he still hit more home runs than anyone else. Steroids might have given him a little more bat speed, and maybe allowed him to play a few more games, but even without the roids he still probably comes close to the record. 

Ortiz getting in on the first ballot kind of baffles me. Nice player, probably the best DH ever, solid stats Never won an MVP, and was never considered one of the top few guys in the league during his career (though he's maybe close). He definitely benefited from a weak class, where frankly there just weren't a lot of guys who belong to be in. Which is even more baffling as to why Bonds and Clemens didn't get in. And the guys that the Veterans committee voted in are for the most part, pretty weak selections too Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minosa, Buck O'Neil, and Tony Oliva (I can get behind Hodges and O'Neil). 

If Joey Votto roided up like those guys, he would have at least 30 more home runs over the past few years.

8 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

I don't agree.

Especially in a time where so many guys were doing steroids. And considering the league and owners didn't exactly discourage it, it's hard for me to be mad at the guys who did use PED's. If I'm a hitter and the guy I'm facing is on the juice, am I just supposed to let him beat me? Especially when my career depends on me being able to compete?

4 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

If Joey Votto roided up like those guys, he would have at least 30 more home runs over the past few years.

Maybe. But what if the pitchers he faced roided up too? In the steroid era, it wasn't like the Bonds and Clemens were the only ones doing it. It was rampant. If a juiced hitter is facing a juiced pitcher, is there really an advantage to be had?

At age 35 Barry Bonds had 445 career home runs. The number of home runs he hit had declined 4 straight years. At age 35 he hit 15 more home runs than he hit the previous year, the highest total of his career. The next year he hit 73 home runs. In the 5 seasons from age 35-39 he hit at least 45 home runs every year. He made a complete farce of the game. There is zero chance he breaks the HR record without steroids. Roids added a bare minimum of 75 HR's to his career total.

16 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

At age 35 Barry Bonds had 445 career home runs. The number of home runs he hit had declined 4 straight years. At age 35 he hit 15 more home runs than he hit the previous year, the highest total of his career. The next year he hit 73 home runs. In the 5 seasons from age 35-39 he hit at least 45 home runs every year. He made a complete farce of the game. There is zero chance he breaks the HR record without steroids. Roids added a bare minimum of 75 HR's to his career total.

We'll never know the real answer, and I certainly can't make a great argument against your point. Even if you take 150 home runs away from him, which is over 20/year during his steroid run, he would still be over 600 home runs and #10 on the all time list. Bottom line is he was the best player in the Steroid era, and should be a HOF'er.

1 hour ago, TheDeuce said:

Again, we have no idea. 

We can agree that it could have helped him. We'll have to disagree he wouldn't have done it otherwise. 

I respect the stance.

Regardless, I think we do agree he belongs.  As I mentioned, I was fine with them making him wait some due to what happened, but I do not agree with him not being in at all. 

2 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

Bonds didn't know he was cheating? Why did he deny it? If it was ok, just say I am doing it and there is no rule against it.

Was there a rule against it? Was it actively being tested for?

2 hours ago, ChickenWyngz said:

Bonds, Clemens, etc. did not break a rule during that time. Ben Johnson and Lance were able to skirt test results and did things that were documented as against the rules. 

Pete walked past a sign everyday telling him not to bet on the game and still made the phone call to make the bet. 

I don't like what they did, but I'm a firm believer in Pete being banished from the game. 

Exactly.  The only way Rose should be in the Hall is to pay admission. 

To see one of his bats, which should be in the Hall.   In an exhibit that describes why he hasn’t been enshrined. 

34 minutes ago, ChickenWyngz said:

Was there a rule against it? Was it actively being tested for?

 You can thank the players union for that.  Steroids were a known issue and it was made clear to everyone in baseball that they should not be used. That goes all the way back into the late eighties. The baseball players union wouldn't let the rules be changed until 2005.

1 minute ago, Voice of Reason said:

 You can thank the players union for that.  Steroids were a known issue and it was made clear to everyone in baseball that they should not be used. That goes all the way back into the late eighties. The baseball players union wouldn't let the rules be changed until 2005.

Nor did MLB truly want them changed during the Bonds run. The rating we’re improving too much, but MLB did the same with foreign substance by pitchers while also looking the other way.
 

We gonna keep out all pitchers too?

45 minutes ago, ChickenWyngz said:

Nor did MLB truly want them changed during the Bonds run. The rating we’re improving too much, but MLB did the same with foreign substance by pitchers while also looking the other way.
 

We gonna keep out all pitchers too?

Law was passed in 1990 that specifically and clearly made steroids illegal. That is a law. Commissioner Fay Vincent sent notice to all the teams in 1991 telling them clearly that steroids are illegal. The point is it is ludicrous to suggest these players did not know they were cheating. They were using an illegal substance and they knew it. You reap what you sow.

44 minutes ago, ChickenWyngz said:

Nor did MLB truly want them changed during the Bonds run. The rating we’re improving too much, but MLB did the same with foreign substance by pitchers while also looking the other way.
 

We gonna keep out all pitchers too?

Baseball has a history of looking the other way until being forced to change. 

8 hours ago, MJAlltheWay24 said:

Most Hits, Most HRs, and Most Cy Young Awards are all left out of the Hall of Fame, thus Cooperstown is irrelevant. 

Pete Rose isn't on the writers association.  They don't have the chance to vote for him.   He's never been on the ballot because MLB won't allow him, due to the ban.