January 25, 20206 yr Re: the 2011-12 season... The Giants O line was ranked 32nd by PFF. The Giants were last in yards per carry AND yards rushing per game. Eli threw an NFL record 15 4th quarter TD passes. The Giants defense finished in the bottom 5. They won the Super Bowl that year. Without Eli they probably wouldnt have made the playoffs. The reason he threw 15 4th quarter TD's is because they were behind and the other team is playing soft/prevent. 16 years, 6 playoff appearances. Exactly average. .500 winning percentage, exactly average. He was on bad teams, not his fault you say, just as when he was on good teams, he wasn't the reason(how about those great defensive lines). In the end, he was a pretty good serviceable quarterback for a long time with 2 Super Bowls. He'll get in, but having guys like Ken Anderson not getting in is a travesty.
January 25, 20206 yr The reason he threw 15 4th quarter TD's is because they were behind and the other team is playing soft/prevent. 16 years, 6 playoff appearances. Exactly average. .500 winning percentage, exactly average. He was on bad teams, not his fault you say, just as when he was on good teams, he wasn't the reason(how about those great defensive lines). In the end, he was a pretty good serviceable quarterback for a long time with 2 Super Bowls. He'll get in, but having guys like Ken Anderson not getting in is a travesty. I think that's what it comes down to for me. The two Super Bowls don't erase the many other years of just being pretty good, especially relative to his peers of the same era. Eli has never been in the conversation for being the best QB of his era, and really probably isn't in the top 5. And I know numbers don't mean everything, but it seems like people only use that to dismiss the numbers that work against a candidate, but then turn around and cite the numbers that work for them. One thing that Eli has going for him is right now, it seems like he may have the HOF class of 2025 to himself. Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rogers, and even Rivers (he's another interesting HOF conversation) all look like they will be playing next year. No other big names, outside of Keuchly, Vinatieri (there aren't a ton of kickers in the HOF) and maybe Adrian Petersen (who's child abuse case may keep him out, at least on his first ballot or two) are retiring this year. And with the many old timers that got in this year with the Centennial Slate of candidates, there really won't be anyone to take votes away from Eli in 2025.
January 25, 20206 yr The reason he threw 15 4th quarter TD's is because they were behind and the other team is playing soft/prevent. 16 years, 6 playoff appearances. Exactly average. .500 winning percentage, exactly average. He was on bad teams, not his fault you say, just as when he was on good teams, he wasn't the reason(how about those great defensive lines). In the end, he was a pretty good serviceable quarterback for a long time with 2 Super Bowls. He'll get in, but having guys like Ken Anderson not getting in is a travesty. So you watched all of those games? They were obviously down, but just because they were down doesn't mean teams went into prevent defenses every time. Teams didn't want to lose and those 15 4th quarter TDs lead to several Giants victories that put them in the playoffs. The Giants defense stunk in 2011. Eli carried that team on his shoulders. He was absolutely the reason they made the playoffs that year. Without his play, they wouldnt have won 5 games.
January 25, 20206 yr I think that's what it comes down to for me. The two Super Bowls don't erase the many other years of just being pretty good, especially relative to his peers of the same era. Eli has never been in the conversation for being the best QB of his era, and really probably isn't in the top 5. And I know numbers don't mean everything, but it seems like people only use that to dismiss the numbers that work against a candidate, but then turn around and cite the numbers that work for them. One thing that Eli has going for him is right now, it seems like he may have the HOF class of 2025 to himself. Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rogers, and even Rivers (he's another interesting HOF conversation) all look like they will be playing next year. No other big names, outside of Keuchly, Vinatieri (there aren't a ton of kickers in the HOF) and maybe Adrian Petersen (who's child abuse case may keep him out, at least on his first ballot or two) are retiring this year. And with the many old timers that got in this year with the Centennial Slate of candidates, there really won't be anyone to take votes away from Eli in 2025. You like to point out he wasnt in the conversation for the best QB of his era. Thats not a requirement first of all, its something people make up to use against him. How is Rivers even in the conversation if you dont think Eli should get in? Their numbers are pretty close, and Eli has 2 championships vs 0 for Rivers. In fact, when did Roethlisberger win any MVPs or when was he considered the best QB over Peyton, Brady and Brees? He doesn't have the super bowl MVPs and has only lead the league in yards, never in TDs. I think Roethlisberger gets in too, but his numbers arent that much better overall than Eli's plus Eli has the more memorable super bowl runs.
January 25, 20206 yr You like to point out he wasnt in the conversation for the best QB of his era. Thats not a requirement first of all, its something people make up to use against him. How is Rivers even in the conversation if you dont think Eli should get in? Their numbers are pretty close, and Eli has 2 championships vs 0 for Rivers. In fact, when did Roethlisberger win any MVPs or when was he considered the best QB over Peyton, Brady and Brees? He doesn't have the super bowl MVPs and has only lead the league in yards, never in TDs. I think Roethlisberger gets in too, but his numbers arent that much better overall than Eli's plus Eli has the more memorable super bowl runs. How can your overall performance (not just two Super Bowl runs) in comparson to your peers not be part of the conversation when talking about the Hall of Fame? If you are not in the conversation of best player at your position of your era, I would think that would at least bring in to question the validity of Hall of Fame consideration. Isn't the HOF supposed to be about the best players? As far as Rivers, I don't think he belongs in either. I've heard talk though from others about Rivers' HOF chances, and he's certainly in the conversation as a guy who played at a high level, and compiled very nice stats over a long career. I would say overall, Eli should get in ahead of Rivers. The only reason I mentioned Rivers is because I think the conversation about his hall worthiness is also very interesting. Overall, I think Eli and Ben are very similar and if one gets in, the other probably should too. I would lean towards no on him as well. The for sure HOF QB's of Eli's era in no particular order are Brady, Rogers, Peyton Manning and Brees. Russell Wilson is in the top tier mix if he has another 4-5 very good years. The next tier is Eli, Ben, and Rivers in that order. I don't dislike Eli. I don't think he's a bad QB. I won't boycott the Hall of Fame if he get elected. He's a great dude, and been a model citizen in addition to being a very durable, productive player. Don't make it out like I'm an Eli hater. There are certainly worse guys in the Hall of Fame, and electing Eli won't make the Hall any less credible. Ultimately, I just don't think the two SB MVP's make up for the rest of his very good career, at least enough to elevate him to the level of being a sure fire HOF'er. There are a lot of Super Bowl MVP's who weren't all time great players. Anyway, this is all just my opinion. He'll likely get
January 25, 20206 yr I think that having played in the biggest market, 2 Superbowl wins, his last name, and the way he comported himself throughout his career will eventually lead to a HOF induction. Watch the media get all over this one for the family side of the story. Biggest earner in NFL history. Think about that Tom Brady lol.
January 25, 20206 yr How can your overall performance (not just two Super Bowl runs) in comparson to your peers not be part of the conversation when talking about the Hall of Fame? If you are not in the conversation of best player at your position of your era, I would think that would at least bring in to question the validity of Hall of Fame consideration. Isn't the HOF supposed to be about the best players? As far as Rivers, I don't think he belongs in either. I've heard talk though from others about Rivers' HOF chances, and he's certainly in the conversation as a guy who played at a high level, and compiled very nice stats over a long career. I would say overall, Eli should get in ahead of Rivers. The only reason I mentioned Rivers is because I think the conversation about his hall worthiness is also very interesting. Overall, I think Eli and Ben are very similar and if one gets in, the other probably should too. I would lean towards no on him as well. The for sure HOF QB's of Eli's era in no particular order are Brady, Rogers, Peyton Manning and Brees. Russell Wilson is in the top tier mix if he has another 4-5 very good years. The next tier is Eli, Ben, and Rivers in that order. I don't dislike Eli. I don't think he's a bad QB. I won't boycott the Hall of Fame if he get elected. He's a great dude, and been a model citizen in addition to being a very durable, productive player. Don't make it out like I'm an Eli hater. There are certainly worse guys in the Hall of Fame, and electing Eli won't make the Hall any less credible. Ultimately, I just don't think the two SB MVP's make up for the rest of his very good career, at least enough to elevate him to the level of being a sure fire HOF'er. There are a lot of Super Bowl MVP's who weren't all time great players. Anyway, this is all just my opinion. He'll likely get Im not gonna argue that Eli has had a better career than any of the players you mentioned. My point is it doesnt matter. More goes into a HOF career than having the most yards or TDs every year. Its why Aikman, Kelly, Elway etc got in.
January 25, 20206 yr Two Super Bowl rings = Hall of Famer. No need to discuss further. It is 5x more certain than the Bengals drafting Joe Burrow.
January 25, 20206 yr Two Super Bowl rings = Hall of Famer. No need to discuss further. It is 5x more certain than the Bengals drafting Joe Burrow. Some will make the Jim Plunkett argument but he doesnt have the MVPs or the career numbers Eli has.
January 25, 20206 yr Some will make the Jim Plunkett argument but he doesnt have the MVPs or the career numbers Eli has. Agree, but 2 is significantly more of a statement than 1.
January 25, 20206 yr Im not gonna argue that Eli has had a better career than any of the players you mentioned. My point is it doesnt matter. More goes into a HOF career than having the most yards or TDs every year. Its why Aikman, Kelly, Elway etc got in. And that's where we differ. I think it does. Aikman is in not because of his numbers, but because he was the QB and leader of the best team of an entire decade. Kind of the Bradshaw of the 90's. That trumps Eli. Elway won 2/3 of the games he played, was durable, put up big numbers, was number 2 on the all time passing list when he retired, and went to 5 Super Bowls, winning two. Advantage Elway. Jim Kelly is similar to Eli in that his numbers weren't elite. He did get to 4 SB's. I loved watching him play, but I'm not sure he belongs. But, if he's in, Eli should probably be in too, because I'd say Eli had the better career. I really enjoy talking about this stuff, and digging into the careers and numbers of these players. Like I said before, I'm ok if (really when) Eli makes it in. He's certainly going to be the top guy to get consideration in his class of nominees. And for certain, the way Eli handled the last couple years of his career (and really his whole career) when his team wasn't doing him any favors, elevates him a little. One of the all time classy guys in the game.
January 25, 20206 yr OK, let's look at this: - Two-time Super Bowl champion - Two-time Super Bowl MVP - Four-time Pro Bowler - Seventh in NFL history with 57,023 passing yards - Seventh in NFL history with 366 passing TDs Is there anyone who thinks that doesn't get you in the Hall of Fame? I will add, he made memorable plays that won those Super Bowl MVP's. It wasn't just him being the QB on the winning team.
January 25, 20206 yr OK, let's look at this: - Two-time Super Bowl champion - Two-time Super Bowl MVP - Four-time Pro Bowler - Seventh in NFL history with 57,023 passing yards - Seventh in NFL history with 366 passing TDs Is there anyone who thinks that doesn't get you in the Hall of Fame? I will add, he made memorable plays that won those Super Bowl MVP's. It wasn't just him being the QB on the winning team. How about this-- *.500 career winning percentage over 234 games *Only made the playoffs in 6 of 16 years *Threw more INT's than any other QB in his era *Touchdown rate of 4.5% which ranks 19 in his era behind Andy Dalton and Jay Cutler to name a couple. *Tied for 33rd with Ryan Fitzpatrick, in his era for completion rate. *Led the league in Int's 3 times.
January 25, 20206 yr How about this-- *.500 career winning percentage over 234 games *Only made the playoffs in 6 of 16 years *Threw more INT's than any other QB in his era *Touchdown rate of 4.5% which ranks 19 in his era behind Andy Dalton and Jay Cutler to name a couple. *Tied for 33rd with Ryan Fitzpatrick, in his era for completion rate. *Led the league in Int's 3 times. Derek Jeter, Reggie Jackson and Mike Schmidt are all top 20 for K's, I guess they didn't belong in HoF either. Hall of Fame is based on achievement, not failures or lack of failures. If a mediocre QB like Aikman is in, then Eli should be in. Put Eli on Aikman's Cowboys and he would have done as well if not better. Put him on the Patriots and he may have 5 rings. Eli except for a few years was in a horrible situation in NY.
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