What difference, at this point, does it make?

 

It would make a difference in the Pollard case.

 

What about those that radicalized the Charlottesville Driver?

7 years on a Visa, theres the start of the problem.

7 years on a Visa, theres the start of the problem.

 

10 years is current max now. That appears a little too much.

So is this guy being read Miranda? I heard he wasn’t. So that confuses this to me.

 

My question has nothing to do with this guy, just asking how people in those two scenarios should be treated. As criminals or enemy combatants? Many are saying that the NYC guy should be treated as a criminal and afforded all the protections of our legal system that anyone else would get. So I ask as a comparison how would we treat those in the scenarios that I laid out.

It would make a difference in the Pollard case.

 

What about those that radicalized the Charlottesville Driver?

 

If they told him to do it, then yes they need to be held accountable too. If they knew what he was planning, they need to be held accountable too. If they encouraged him, then again they need to be held accountable.

I agree with you on the "Lottery Visa" program.

 

But can't quite follow the logic of your conclusions.

 

Who is "They?" Everyone who is Muslim? Everyone who comes from a radicalized area of the world?

 

#2 is confusing to me as well. You are correct that almost all of these individuals have been followers of Islam. But what % do they represent of all Muslims? And what's more is our conclusion that every Muslim be denied Visas?

 

I'm asking because if that's what you are saying I'm not sure what path that leads us down. These are difficult times and I agree with your attempts to figure out what we do. (Ending the Lottery approach is the first good step as I see it) But I have a problem labeling every Muslim applicant as ineligible. But I'm also not sure what screening can be done to "prevent" all these attacks through immigration control.

 

Thanks for the input Jesse.

 

I laid out that almost 100% of the people committing terrorist acts like we are talking about are Muslim. Thats fact. So thats who "they" are. I am not talking about the Las Vegas shooter, Walmart shooter from last night, just immigrants who are trying to get into our country. Its a given that Christianity or any other religion is not out there trying to get their followers to kill us correct? So to that point I say profile any Muslim from any country thats trying to enter our country. If they do not have bad intentions then they wont care. Plus they do not yet have rights as Americans( not a US citizen) so they are not "entitled" to what we have here at this point.

 

I am not saying anywhere that we deny all Muslims Visas. Just vet them all to make sure they do not want to kill Hatz and his family. I had rather be safe than sorry when dealing with virgin seeking martyrs.

 

What road does this take us down. One that was created by someone other than Americans for the most part. As with all things that are not pleasant, comes actions that are not gonna please everyone, but if I am going to protect Hatz and his family, I am going to have to make some hard decisions all of which neither you nor me want but at this point it appears we have no choice because, unlike myself and you, these people are not willing to stop or be reasoned with.

 

I hope this explains my train of thought better and answered what you asked. If not fire away again.

My question has nothing to do with this guy, just asking how people in those two scenarios should be treated. As criminals or enemy combatants? Many are saying that the NYC guy should be treated as a criminal and afforded all the protections of our legal system that anyone else would get. So I ask as a comparison how would we treat those in the scenarios that I laid out.

 

I think he's a combatant. However I confess to not having listened to much on the TV heads about this. I haven't heard anyone say he deserves Miranda or citizen rights.

So is this guy being read Miranda? I heard he wasn’t. So that confuses this to me.

 

I haven't been following along but why read him his Miranda Rights?

 

There is plenty to convict him without him incriminating himself so I think the higher interest should be getting every last bit of intelligence out of him which means no Miranda Rights.

I laid out that almost 100% of the people committing terrorist acts like we are talking about are Muslim. Thats fact. So thats who "they" are. I am not talking about the Las Vegas shooter, Walmart shooter from last night, just immigrants who are trying to get into our country. Its a given that Christianity or any other religion is not out there trying to get their followers to kill us correct? So to that point I say profile any Muslim from any country thats trying to enter our country. If they do not have bad intentions then they wont care. Plus they do not yet have rights as Americans( not a US citizen) so they are not "entitled" to what we have here at this point.

 

I am not saying anywhere that we deny all Muslims Visas. Just vet them all to make sure they do not want to kill Hatz and his family. I had rather be safe than sorry when dealing with virgin seeking martyrs.

 

What road does this take us down. One that was created by someone other than Americans for the most part. As with all things that are not pleasant, comes actions that are not gonna please everyone, but if I am going to protect Hatz and his family, I am going to have to make some hard decisions all of which neither you nor me want but at this point it appears we have no choice because, unlike myself and you, these people are not willing to stop or be reasoned with.

 

I hope this explains my train of thought better and answered what you asked. If not fire away again.

 

Explains it well Jesse. Thanks for taking the time.

 

If we use Islam as part of the vetting process okay. But how does one prove to be a reasonable and not threatening practitioner of Islam? I ask because I know of one individual who was delayed for a long time of entering the country to be with his American wife and child because he was from Syria and Muslim at least in heritage. The system eventually worked and if it takes that long to make the right decision I stand with you to say let it take that long.

 

As long as people are treated as individuals rather than as groupings I think any screening is worth it.

 

I know the following is simplistic but this is the current process. What else is added that we can perhaps screen these individuals?

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+on+the+20+steps+of+immigration+to+a merica&view=detail&mid=C9A7CE853051E0F8A49EC9A7CE853051E0F8A49E&FORM=VIRE

 

I must also add that I do care about the Vegas Shooter and Dylan Roof and Charlottesville and the Walmart gunman and Timothy McVeigh because they are doing as much damage as the ones you and I agree on weeding out.

 

As I mentioned earlier, our intelligence forces did a good job infiltrating the Klan in the 60's. Can we not do something similar to right and left wing extremists and Muslim cells that may exist in the US?

I haven't been following along but why read him his Miranda Rights?

 

There is plenty to convict him without him incriminating himself so I think the higher interest should be getting every last bit of intelligence out of him which means no Miranda Rights.

 

That's precisely my point. I don't think he should be read them. I don't think he qualifies.

 

Last I heard he wasn't read them.

 

My response about this is all the posters who seem to be shouting that this guy doesn't deserve the rights of a citizen and this is terror/military act and not criminal.

 

I honestly haven't heard anyone say he should be viewed as a naturalized citizen or as a criminal.

That's precisely my point. I don't think he should be read them. I don't think he qualifies.

 

Last I heard he wasn't read them.

 

My response about this is all the posters who seem to be shouting that this guy doesn't deserve the rights of a citizen and this is terror/military act and not criminal.

 

I honestly haven't heard anyone say he should be viewed as a naturalized citizen or as a criminal.

 

I believe we are on the same page.

 

Additionally, any talk of sending him to Gitmo is silly in my opinion. I don't know if that is still a topic or not but it is just silly.

I believe we are on the same page.

 

Additionally, any talk of sending him to Gitmo is silly in my opinion. I don't know if that is still a topic or not but it is just silly.

 

Agreed. We can waterboard him anywhere! :thumb:

Agreed. We can waterboard him anywhere! :thumb:

 

I have mixed feelings about torture and I will leave it at that.

 

I will add, from what I am told Gitmo is like a Country Club these days. I am thinking President Obama really changed the culture there when he realized he couldn't shut it down.

Explains it well Jesse. Thanks for taking the time.

 

If we use Islam as part of the vetting process okay. But how does one prove to be a reasonable and not threatening practitioner of Islam? I ask because I know of one individual who was delayed for a long time of entering the country to be with his American wife and child because he was from Syria and Muslim at least in heritage. The system eventually worked and if it takes that long to make the right decision I stand with you to say let it take that long.

 

As long as people are treated as individuals rather than as groupings I think any screening is worth it.

 

I know the following is simplistic but this is the current process. What else is added that we can perhaps screen these individuals?

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+on+the+20+steps+of+immigration+to+a merica&view=detail&mid=C9A7CE853051E0F8A49EC9A7CE853051E0F8A49E&FORM=VIRE

 

I must also add that I do care about the Vegas Shooter and Dylan Roof and Charlottesville and the Walmart gunman and Timothy McVeigh because they are doing as much damage as the ones you and I agree on weeding out.

 

As I mentioned earlier, our intelligence forces did a good job infiltrating the Klan in the 60's. Can we not do something similar to right and left wing extremists and Muslim cells that may exist in the US?

 

I only set these nuts aside as I did not want to get into that while I was explaining my thoughts on this subject.

I laid out that almost 100% of the people committing terrorist acts like we are talking about are Muslim. Thats fact. So thats who "they" are. I am not talking about the Las Vegas shooter, Walmart shooter from last night, just immigrants who are trying to get into our country. Its a given that Christianity or any other religion is not out there trying to get their followers to kill us correct? So to that point I say profile any Muslim from any country thats trying to enter our country. If they do not have bad intentions then they wont care. Plus they do not yet have rights as Americans( not a US citizen) so they are not "entitled" to what we have here at this point.

 

I am not saying anywhere that we deny all Muslims Visas. Just vet them all to make sure they do not want to kill Hatz and his family. I had rather be safe than sorry when dealing with virgin seeking martyrs.

 

What road does this take us down. One that was created by someone other than Americans for the most part. As with all things that are not pleasant, comes actions that are not gonna please everyone, but if I am going to protect Hatz and his family, I am going to have to make some hard decisions all of which neither you nor me want but at this point it appears we have no choice because, unlike myself and you, these people are not willing to stop or be reasoned with.

 

I hope this explains my train of thought better and answered what you asked. If not fire away again.

 

The road we're now on was created by people originally of British citizenry. And many view that road paved by our founding fathers as unassailable.

 

Unless it's not, and we acknowledge they never anticipated this sort of thing, among others.

 

Until we shift gears as a country and throw out the Constitution and Bill of Rights, well …