Because district games is the only thing that decides district winners that aren't a tie, then use district games as tie breaker by using points for and against as tie breakers since all district teams all play common opponents. That is how I would do it. That way bad teams out of district can't be the determining factor because it's tough year to year to judge who will be bad especially coming off good years the year before.

 

So doesn't that encourage a team to run up the score? And isn't running up the score difficult with a running clock?

 

Example: Team A scores to make it 34-0 over Team B. Team A decides to kick an extra point instead of go for two, because going for two gives a running clock. So now Team A is up 35-0 and will get at least one more drive of regular game action to score even more points.

 

Or Another Example

 

Example: Team A is up 41-0 and puts in the JV and freshman against Team B, hoping to get more reps. Team B scores two touchdowns to make the final 41-14. The game was never in doubt and Team A got all of their players experience.

 

Team C plays Team B one week later and is also up 41-0. They keep all of their starters in, pushing the score up to 55-0, knowing they need to win by more than the 27 points Team A won by. Team C wins your tiebreaker. Team A, doing what was right for all involved, didn't run up the score and is thus punished.

If Al Davis were alive and reading this thread, he would have one comment. "Just Win Baby" Then it take care of itself. The rest would give you a headache.

Yea the tie breaker for 3 teams is really bad. You could literally finish the reg season with a 9-1 record while the two other teams could be 6-4 and 7-3 and you could be the #3 seed with a 9-1 record. They really need a different tie break system. The only silver lining for Cooper with a loss to Conner this weekend would be the worst they can finish for their first year after

Moving up to 6A is a tie for district title.

 

1) If you're 9-1 and finished THIRD (or second, but still) in a three-way tiebreaker involving a 6-4 teams and a 7-3 team ... then your 9-1 record was filled with cupcakes. Pretty good chance in that scenario that the 6-4 and 7-3 team would NOT be that far in the computer ratings (which use strength of schedule) behind the 9-1 team (if at all).

 

2) As ATL pointed out, you do NOT want to "encourage" running clocks in late district games (meaning a team going for a district title shows no mercy against an inferior cellar dwellar).

 

3) If you use "points for/points scored" as a tiebreaker, you're encouraging teams to trade points -- i.e. allow them to score -- just to get the ball back and run up the total. In that case, a 70-56 win is more valuable than a 45-0 win.

 

4) You could use points allowed in district, but then again, you're encouraging teams to leave in their starters -- even up 28-0, 35-0, 42-0 -- late in the game just to keep the shutout intact. Really, should the JV or freshman giving up a fourth-quarter touchdown determine a seed? No.

 

There are so many flaws with doing it by "district only".

 

Plus, what if the 9-1 team STILL finished third behind the 6-4 and 7-3 team in a "district only" tiebreaker (because the 6-4 and 7-3 teams HAMMERED the other district teams, while 9-1 squeaked by)? That IS a possibility, you know.

What about Knott, Magoffin and Morgan? They all are 1-3 and could potentially be 1-4 after tomorrow's games. Looks like Knott would be the 4th place team in district 7.

Anyone care to take a stab at Male, X and Manual in the event Manual pulled off the upset tomorrow night? Would be a 3 way tie.

 

MANUAL WINS (24)

Fern Creek (8)

Central (6)

Ballard (5)

PRP (5)

Others: Western (3), Butler (2), Seneca (0)

To Play: Eastern (4)

 

MALE WINS (22)

Trinity (8)

Ballard (5)

PRP (5)

Fairdale (4)

Others: Floyd Central (4), Butler (2) Seneca (0)

To Play: Western (3)

 

ST. X WINS (19)

Bowling Green (7)

PRP (5)

Henry Clay (4)

Highlands (3)

To Play: Cincy St. X (5), Butler (2)

 

All three schools are counting PRP, so it cancels out.

And Ballard cancels out for Manual/Male.

Ballard upsetting Trinity (not likely) would help Manual more than it does Male because BOTH teams include Ballard. Male's gonna get a point regardless (because it beat both Trinity and Ballard), but Male doesn't need Manual to "go even" with it in the Ballard-Trinity game.

In a 3-way tie where head to head does not differentiate you take the 4 wins with the most wins of their own. You cannot count another team involved in the tie-breaker as your win though.

 

If that doesn't separate the tie-breaker it gets way too confusing to write down...

 

Logn Story short if a 3-way tiebreaker happens Conner would have the upper hand barring teams they beat suffering upsets. If Ryle upsets Simon Kenton they really help their own cause ina big way as Simon Kenton will most likely carry 9 points with them

 

Are you sure? I thought that you could count the wins of a team you beat that you are in a tiebreaker with? Wow learn something new everyday.

MANUAL WINS (24)

Fern Creek (8)

Central (6)

Ballard (5)

PRP (5)

Others: Western (3), Butler (2), Seneca (0)

To Play: Eastern (4)

 

MALE WINS (22)

Trinity (8)

Ballard (5)

PRP (5)

Fairdale (4)

Others: Floyd Central (4), Butler (2) Seneca (0)

To Play: Western (3)

 

ST. X WINS (19)

Bowling Green (7)

PRP (5)

Henry Clay (4)

Highlands (3)

To Play: Cincy St. X (5), Butler (2)

 

All three schools are counting PRP, so it cancels out.

And Ballard cancels out for Manual/Male.

Ballard upsetting Trinity (not likely) would help Manual more than it does Male because BOTH teams include Ballard. Male's gonna get a point regardless (because it beat both Trinity and Ballard), but Male doesn't need Manual to "go even" with it in the Ballard-Trinity game.

 

Male doesnt get to count Floyd Central, out of state victories dont count towards tie breaker.

What about Knott, Magoffin and Morgan? They all are 1-3 and could potentially be 1-4 after tomorrow's games. Looks like Knott would be the 4th place team in district 7.

 

KNOTT (5): East Ridge (3), South Floyd (2), Betsy Layne (0)

MORGAN (5): Allen Central (4), Jackson County (1), Betsy Layne (0)

MAGOFFIN (0): Betsy Layne (0).

 

Still to play:

Knott vs. Allen Central (4-4)

Magoffin vs. West Carter (6-2)

Morgan vs. Sheldon Clark (2-6)

 

Magoffin has to stun West Carter to have any shot.

 

Knott beating Allen Central would cancel out Morgan's best win, dooming Morgan.

 

Morgan beating Sheldon Clark AND Allen Central beating Knott might be enough to push Morgan by Knott.

Male doesnt get to count Floyd Central, out of state victories dont count towards tie breaker.

 

Floyd COUNTS.

 

Ahem ...

 

http://khsaa.org/handbook/competitionrules/fbcompetitionrules.pdf

Page 2

Right Column

C-3-ii

"ii) If the tie remains, each team tied for the position shall receive one point for each game won by any four of their defeated opponents in all games, except for the games played between any two of the tied teams. All games played shall be counted in applying the tie-breaking procedure, including out of state games, with the exception that a defeated school may be counted only once in the procedure regardless of the number of games played against that particular school. Teams awarded forfeit victories (whether or not a forfeit fee is paid) may count the defeated opponents of the forfeiting team, provided the game was not replaced on the schedule."

 

And here's last year's tiebreaker:

http://khsaa.org/football/2014/threewaytiebreakertodate.pdf

 

Louisville Holy Cross counted Providence (Indiana)'s seven wins and Boyd County counted South Point (Ohio)'s two wins.

Are you sure? I thought that you could count the wins of a team you beat that you are in a tiebreaker with? Wow learn something new everyday.

 

http://khsaa.org/handbook/competitionrules/fbcompetitionrules.pdf

Page 2

Right Column

C-3-ii

"ii) If the tie remains, each team tied for the position shall receive one point for each game won by any four of their defeated opponents in all games, except for the games played between any two of the tied teams. All games played shall be counted in applying the tie-breaking procedure, including out of state games, with the exception that a defeated school may be counted only once in the procedure regardless of the number of games played against that particular school. Teams awarded forfeit victories (whether or not a forfeit fee is paid) may count the defeated opponents of the forfeiting team, provided the game was not replaced on the schedule."

 

In layman's terms: Teams in a tiebreaker CAN'T include wins over another team in the same tiebreaker. However, out-of-state wins DO count.

Wow. How confusing.

How would you use district games to break ties?

 

Example from this year:

 

Class 3A - District 3

1. Central (5-0)

2. Henry County (3-2)

2. Bardstown (3-2)

2. Waggener (3-2)

5. Moore (1-4)

6. Thomas Nelson (0-5)

 

The bolded teams are in the tiebreaker. They all lost to Central, they all beat Moore and Thomas Nelson. They split among each other. How do you break that tie?

 

Or this one (if Raceland beats Paintsville)

 

Class 1A - District 6

1. Fairview (1-1)

1. Paintsville (1-1)

1. Raceland (1-1)

 

They all beat and lost to each other. How do you break that?

 

I would use Points for and points against as the tie breakers and then if still a tie after that you can go out of district and use the 4 team win total, but I don't think it would ever get to that.

 

Team with most fewestpoints scored against would be first tie breaker (this would take out of teams running score up to win tie breakers for this tie breaker.

 

Team with most points scored would be second tie breaker (want to eliminate running up the score then you can put a cap of 50 points per game is the most you can count. So if a team wins 70-21 they can only count 50 of those 70 points into their total)

 

Then if it is still a tie (which would be pretty rare) then you can go to 4 teams that you have beaten and total their wins as final tie breaker.

1) If you're 9-1 and finished THIRD (or second, but still) in a three-way tiebreaker involving a 6-4 teams and a 7-3 team ... then your 9-1 record was filled with cupcakes. Pretty good chance in that scenario that the 6-4 and 7-3 team would NOT be that far in the computer ratings (which use strength of schedule) behind the 9-1 team (if at all).

 

2) As ATL pointed out, you do NOT want to "encourage" running clocks in late district games (meaning a team going for a district title shows no mercy against an inferior cellar dwellar).

 

3) If you use "points for/points scored" as a tiebreaker, you're encouraging teams to trade points -- i.e. allow them to score -- just to get the ball back and run up the total. In that case, a 70-56 win is more valuable than a 45-0 win.

 

4) You could use points allowed in district, but then again, you're encouraging teams to leave in their starters -- even up 28-0, 35-0, 42-0 -- late in the game just to keep the shutout intact. Really, should the JV or freshman giving up a fourth-quarter touchdown determine a seed? No.

 

There are so many flaws with doing it by "district only".

 

Plus, what if the 9-1 team STILL finished third behind the 6-4 and 7-3 team in a "district only" tiebreaker (because the 6-4 and 7-3 teams HAMMERED the other district teams, while 9-1 squeaked by)? That IS a possibility, you know.

 

The problem was, the team that finished 9-1 in that scenerio which actually happened in 2012 wasn't filled with cupcake teams. The tie breakers between the 3 was actually very close. 1 point separated 1st from 2nd and 2nd from 3rd. the big difference was the last game of the season for the team that actually got the 1 seed played a Cov Cath team that already had their seeding for playoffs so played a lot of their subs while the team that was in a tie for 1 seed in another class and district played their starters and the game took place in a mud and rain bath and the underdog for that game. Both teams (1 seed and 3 seed) played identical schedules except for 1 game. The 1 seed played Cov Cath and the 3 seed played Holmes that year. That was the only difference in the schedule. The 3 seed played Holmes near the beginning of the year while the 1 seed played CCH the last game of the year when CCH had nothing to play for and played a lot of subs. That was the only difference in schedules. So it wasn't a case of 1 team playing a lot of cupcakes while the other was playing tough teams.

 

As far as the 9-1 team still ending up 3rd seed in the district tie breaker, then that is fine. At least all the teams that were involved in the tie breaker were playing the same teams that made the tie breaker. As was pointed out earlier especially with 2 year contracts, it's really tough to know 2 years in advance how good your out of district teams will be in the future. Who knew CCH and HHS would be among the worst teams on most teams schedules this year? Highlands just came off another state championship the year before. So at least with my tie breaker all the teams involved are playing common opponents to decide the tie breaker.

The problem was, the team that finished 9-1 in that scenerio which actually happened in 2012 wasn't filled with cupcake teams. The tie breakers between the 3 was actually very close. 1 point separated 1st from 2nd and 2nd from 3rd. the big difference was the last game of the season for the team that actually got the 1 seed played a Cov Cath team that already had their seeding for playoffs so played a lot of their subs while the team that was in a tie for 1 seed in another class and district played their starters and the game took place in a mud and rain bath and the underdog for that game. Both teams (1 seed and 3 seed) played identical schedules except for 1 game. The 1 seed played Cov Cath and the 3 seed played Holmes that year. That was the only difference in the schedule. The 3 seed played Holmes near the beginning of the year while the 1 seed played CCH the last game of the year when CCH had nothing to play for and played a lot of subs. That was the only difference in schedules. So it wasn't a case of 1 team playing a lot of cupcakes while the other was playing tough teams.

 

As far as the 9-1 team still ending up 3rd seed in the district tie breaker, then that is fine. At least all the teams that were involved in the tie breaker were playing the same teams that made the tie breaker. As was pointed out earlier especially with 2 year contracts, it's really tough to know 2 years in advance how good your out of district teams will be in the future. Who knew CCH and HHS would be among the worst teams on most teams schedules this year? Highlands just came off another state championship the year before. So at least with my tie breaker all the teams involved are playing common opponents to decide the tie breaker.

 

If a 6-4 team is anywhere close to a 9-1 team in the points win tiebreaker ... than FIVE (more than half) wins for the 9-1 team don't mean squat. Thus, cupcake. But 4/6 wins (more than 2 thirds) of wins for 6-4 almost equaled 4/9 wins for 9-1. Thus, 6-4 played a better schedule.

 

Theoretically in a six-team district three wins would cancel out (assuming A-B-C are in the tiebreaker and they all swept D-E-F).

 

Conner was 8-2 (not 9-1, 7-3 or 6-4) after beating CovCath in the final regular-season game in 2012.

 

2012 District Football Standings | Kentucky High School Athletic Association

Class 5A, District 5 Overall District

 

(1)South Oldham 7 - 3 3 - 1

(2)Conner 8 - 2 3 - 1

(3)Cooper 9 - 1 3 - 1

(4)Scott 5 - 5 1 - 3

Grant County 3 - 7 0 - 4

 

Football Tie Breaker

Conner

Covington Catholic 7

Campbell County 6

Scott 5

Grant County 3

Top 4 Subtotal: 21

Ryle 3

Holy Cross (Covington) 3

Boone County 1

Total: 28

 

Cooper

Holmes 6

Campbell County 6

Scott 5

Grant County 3

Top 4 Subtotal: 20

Dixie Heights 3

Holy Cross (Covington) 3

Ryle 3

Boone County 1

Total: 30

 

South Oldham

North Oldham 6

Bullitt Central 6

North Bullitt 5

Scott 5

Top 4 Subtotal: 22

Oldham County 4

Grant County 3

Total: 29

 

Two of the three had near identical schedules. However, South Oldham (the team with the overall worst record of the tiebreaker trio) was BETTER off beating North Oldham, Bullitt Central and North Bullitt. All three counted Scott, but South Oldham was able to trade Grant (3 wins) for North Oldham (6) or Bullitt Central (6), which pushed South Oldham over the top.

 

So like I said, if a 7-3 team is near a 9-1 team in a tiebreaker, it's because a 7-3 team has a better win (or two, in South Oldham's case) than the 9-1 team.

 

In South Oldham's case, only 29 percent of the teams it beat finished with FEWER than four wins.

In Cooper's case, 55 percent (nearly double) of the teams it beat finished with fewer than four wins.

 

While Cooper had the better record, South Oldham had the better schedule.

 

As far as district-only tiebreakers, teams with overmatched opponents in their final district games are better off than teams who played them earlier.

 

If A beat C 48-6, B knows it can beat C 55-0 and surpass A in the tiebreaker. Then you're encouraging leaving in your offensive starters to run up the score and leave in your defensive starters to keep the shutout intact.

 

And is there that much of a difference between a 48-6 win on the road and a 55-0 win at home? They're BOTH running clocks (both blowouts by anyone's definition).

 

But you think that should determine the seed? Really? You don't see any issue with that?

If a 6-4 team is anywhere close to a 9-1 team in the points win tiebreaker ... than FIVE (more than half) wins for the 9-1 team don't mean squat. Thus, cupcake. But 4/6 wins (more than 2 thirds) of wins for 6-4 almost equaled 4/9 wins for 9-1. Thus, 6-4 played a better schedule.

 

Theoretically in a six-team district three wins would cancel out (assuming A-B-C are in the tiebreaker and they all swept D-E-F).

 

Conner was 8-2 (not 9-1, 7-3 or 6-4) after beating CovCath in the final regular-season game in 2012.

 

2012 District Football Standings | Kentucky High School Athletic Association

Class 5A, District 5 Overall District

 

(1)South Oldham 7 - 3 3 - 1

(2)Conner 8 - 2 3 - 1

(3)Cooper 9 - 1 3 - 1

(4)Scott 5 - 5 1 - 3

Grant County 3 - 7 0 - 4

 

Football Tie Breaker

Conner

Covington Catholic 7

Campbell County 6

Scott 5

Grant County 3

Top 4 Subtotal: 21

Ryle 3

Holy Cross (Covington) 3

Boone County 1

Total: 28

 

Cooper

Holmes 6

Campbell County 6

Scott 5

Grant County 3

Top 4 Subtotal: 20

Dixie Heights 3

Holy Cross (Covington) 3

Ryle 3

Boone County 1

Total: 30

 

South Oldham

North Oldham 6

Bullitt Central 6

North Bullitt 5

Scott 5

Top 4 Subtotal: 22

Oldham County 4

Grant County 3

Total: 29

 

Two of the three had near identical schedules. However, South Oldham (the team with the overall worst record of the tiebreaker trio) was BETTER off beating North Oldham, Bullitt Central and North Bullitt. All three counted Scott, but South Oldham was able to trade Grant (3 wins) for North Oldham (6) or Bullitt Central (6), which pushed South Oldham over the top.

 

So like I said, if a 7-3 team is near a 9-1 team in a tiebreaker, it's because a 7-3 team has a better win (or two, in South Oldham's case) than the 9-1 team.

 

In South Oldham's case, only 29 percent of the teams it beat finished with FEWER than four wins.

In Cooper's case, 55 percent (nearly double) of the teams it beat finished with fewer than four wins.

 

While Cooper had the better record, South Oldham had the better schedule.

 

As far as district-only tiebreakers, teams with overmatched opponents in their final district games are better off than teams who played them earlier.

 

If A beat C 48-6, B knows it can beat C 55-0 and surpass A in the tiebreaker. Then you're encouraging leaving in your offensive starters to run up the score and leave in your defensive starters to keep the shutout intact.

 

And is there that much of a difference between a 48-6 win on the road and a 55-0 win at home? They're BOTH running clocks (both blowouts by anyone's definition).

 

But you think that should determine the seed? Really? You don't see any issue with that?

 

Again, for me the fairest way is to decide tie breakers through district games especially seeing how district games are the only games that matter when deciding who wins district outside of tie breakers anyway. so use district games which meansd COMMON opponents to decide tie breakers also.

Now if you were going by overall record to decide district seedings then I could agree with the tie breaker that is being used today because that would mean out of district games actually do matter. But with district seedings being determined soley off of district games then you should also use district games as tie breakers because it is all against common opponents.

 

Again, I really don't care about running the score up but if that bothers so many people then you use a cap just like I stated earlier. You take points scored up to 50 points a game, that settles the running up the score issue.