If people believe that God punishes people for their sins via disease, do they also believe that anyone with a serious disease is being punished?

Because God loves us, he gave us free will, literally the ability to choose whatever we want. So, crime exists because people make the choice to go against God, or what they know is right. For starvation and disease, perhaps these things are tests (like you said) presented to us so that we have the opportunity to choose between Good and evil. If God did not give us challenges to see if we turn to Him or not, we would be living in a utilitarianism type society.

 

If God is All-Knowing (as well as All-Powerful and All Good/Merciful), how can there be Free Will if He knows hundreds of years before you're born what your choices will be? It would have to be that way if we are to believe He is All-Knowing. Every individual born would lead a life already predetermined and known.

So, He knew long before Hitler was ever born that he would be responsible for the most massive human atrocities in the history of the world. And if He knew this in advance, then based on his All-Merciful and All-Powerful description, it would only stand to reason that He would not allow the Holocaust and other horrors of WW II to occur. He would have spared these innocent people and punished the evil Hitler.

 

There is a contradiction in the Free Will belief, imo. An omniscient creator would have the capacity to know everything there is to know, past present, and future. And the ability to use His power to show the mercy and goodness that is so often mentioned in the Scriptures. If He already knows how events are going to play out or what our will is, how can it be Free Will?

 

I don't know. It's just a confusing topic to me. :confused:

If God is All-Knowing (as well as All-Powerful and All Good/Merciful), how can there be Free Will if He knows hundreds of years before you're born what your choices will be? It would have to be that way if we are to believe He is All-Knowing.

 

I do not think that is necessarily so. An omniscient God knows everything that is happening and has happened. He knows you so well that he knows what you will probably do. There are several examples in the bible where God has been so impressed by a person's actions that he decided to change his mind.

 

The problem with believing that God knows exactly what is going to happen and that it cannot happen differently is that it negates the value of prayer and petitioning. The parable of he Persistent Widow and the Unjust Judge teaches that we can wear God out with prayer to the point that he will change his mind.

If God is All-Knowing (as well as All-Powerful and All Good/Merciful), how can there be Free Will if He knows hundreds of years before you're born what your choices will be? It would have to be that way if we are to believe He is All-Knowing. Every individual born would lead a life already predetermined and known.

So, He knew long before Hitler was ever born that he would be responsible for the most massive human atrocities in the history of the world. And if He knew this in advance, then based on his All-Merciful and All-Powerful description, it would only stand to reason that He would not allow the Holocaust and other horrors of WW II to occur. He would have spared these innocent people and punished the evil Hitler.

 

There is a contradiction in the Free Will belief, imo. An omniscient creator would have the capacity to know everything there is to know, past present, and future. And the ability to use His power to show the mercy and goodness that is so often mentioned in the Scriptures. If He already knows how events are going to play out or what our will is, how can it be Free Will?

 

I don't know. It's just a confusing topic to me. :confused:

 

I have had the same thoughts as well. Here is what I've come to think:

 

God knows what we will decide, how long we will live, and everything else we could possibly know. Perhaps these decisions are presented to us and we do have a choice, and the one we ultimately decide if the one God knew we would since the beginning of time. So I think God has given us free will and the ability to choose between right and wrong, even though He knows what each of us will eventually pick.

I do not think that is necessarily so. An omniscient God knows everything that is happening and has happened. He knows you so well that he knows what you will probably do. There are several examples in the bible where God has been so impressed by a person's actions that he decided to change his mind.

 

The problem with believing that God knows exactly what is going to happen and that it cannot happen differently is that it negates the value of prayer and petitioning. The parable of he Persistent Widow and the Unjust Judge teaches that we can wear God out with prayer to the point that he will change his mind.

 

To add to your point, the basis of St. Augustine's lifelong treatise on theodicy is this (I'm REEEEEALLY paraphrasing): "All of the good that comes from free will from the beginning to the end of time outweighs all the bad that comes from it from the beginning to the end of time."

 

The estimates I have seen put the total human population since the beginning of mankind (around 50,000 BC) at somewhere between 85 and 108 billion humans to have walked the earth. WWII and the Holocaust combined killed and estimated 71 million people. That is only 0.0657% of the humans that have lived over the course of human history. Maybe God's head is bigger at understanding the numbers of all of this than ours.

 

 

 

Also, if you want the most basic explanation that I have to offer on the "How can God know what is going to happen ahead of time and yet let things still be of the 'free will' of those whom he created?" subject, I would say this: Knowing is not doing. I can go into nature and show many, many examples of how I know things will happen, and yet I have not played a roll in them happening. I think to a morning of deer hunting I experienced years back. I was in my tree stand, and I saw a hawk sitting in the sun on a large bow in a tree about 50 yards from me. My tree stand was near a hickory tree, and there were hundreds of hickory nuts laying on the ground around it. While the hawk was sitting at it's perch, I heard a squirrel come up from behind me and make its way over to the hickory nuts, which put it clearly in the hawk's line of sight. At that point, I knew that the hawk was going to be having squirrel for breakfast, and I allowed it to happen - although I clearly could have done any number of things to scare the hawk away, but didn't. Sure enough, I watched the hawk slash down from the tree and kill the squirrel. How is it really that much different with God with mankind and their freewill?

I think we agree but I may take it a little differently. I do not believe God necessarily knows everything. I do not think the future exists yet so God does not know what we will do or when we will die. I believe God knows everything that has happened or that is happening. Since God knows us better than we know ourselves, he knows what we will probably do. Sometimes we surprise him.

 

Biblical Example: God was going to kill Ahab, but Ahab tore his clothes, fasted, put on sackcloth, and humbled himself. God said (paraphrase, I do not have a Bible on me...) "Do you see how Ahab has humbled himself? Because he has done this, I will not bring his destruction during his lifetime"

 

God also was going to destroy the Ninevites, but when Jonah went to preach to them, they turned to God and he decided t spare them. Of course, 100 years later he destroys them in the book of Nahum, but this is an example of God being impressed by human action and then altering his intent because of it.

 

Lets say this, if God knew that tomorrow morning you were going to eat a banana for breakfast, is their anything you can do between now and tomorrow to avoid eating the banana?

I don't know if God punishes sins but I do believe that he rewards people.

 

My SIL tried to have a baby for years using in-vitro and everything else known to man. They finally decided it was not going to happen and chose to adopt a baby. When it got closer to the due date, it was determined that this baby would be born with Down's Syndrome and would have many medical problems. Instead of walking away which they could have done, they went ahead with the adoption knowing that the birth mother didn't want the baby and he would end up in a home somewhere. Right after they brought their new baby boy home, my SIL found out she was pregnant and eventually gave birth to a healthy baby girl. I firmly believe that God rewarded my SIL for taking on the responsibility of raising and loving this little boy with Down's that no one else wanted.

I don't know if God punishes sins but I do believe that he rewards people.

 

My SIL tried to have a baby for years using in-vitro and everything else known to man. They finally decided it was not going to happen and chose to adopt a baby. When it got closer to the due date, it was determined that this baby would be born with Down's Syndrome and would have many medical problems. Instead of walking away which they could have done, they went ahead with the adoption knowing that the birth mother didn't want the baby and he would end up in a home somewhere. Right after they brought their new baby boy home, my SIL found out she was pregnant and eventually gave birth to a healthy baby girl. I firmly believe that God rewarded my SIL for taking on the responsibility of raising and loving this little boy with Down's that no one else wanted.

This is a very uplifting post. Thanks for sharing, and many blessings to your SIL.

A common theme I hear in the church I attend (Southland) is that God doesn't cause disease in the ordinary course of going about his day. However, as it relates to punishment of sin via disease, that seems to be another matter altogether.

 

I am no theologian, but I did find the following passages interesting:

 

2 Chronicles 21:12-19English Standard Version (ESV)

 

12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, “Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel and have enticed Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem into whoredom, as the house of Ahab led Israel into whoredom, and also you have killed your brothers, of your father's house, who were better than you, 14 behold, the Lord will bring a great plague on your people, your children, your wives, and all your possessions, 15 and you yourself will have a severe sickness with a disease of your bowels, until your bowels come out because of the disease, day by day.’”

16 And the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the anger[a] of the Philistines and of the Arabians who are near the Ethiopians. 17 And they came up against Judah and invaded it and carried away all the possessions they found that belonged to the king's house, and also his sons and his wives, so that no son was left to him except Jehoahaz, his youngest son.

 

18 And after all this the Lord struck him in his bowels with an incurable disease. 19 In the course of time, at the end of two years, his bowels came out because of the disease, and he died in great agony. His people made no fire in his honor, like the fires made for his fathers.

 

 

I wonder why God is so mean and vengeful, especially towards innocent children. I might like Him better if He released His anger more benevolently. Even as I younger lad I was confused as to why God's anger prompted Him to do such things as kill babies and send plagues on the innocent. I guess I just don't understand Him like most folks do. I know that Baptist church out in Kansas claims that God hates most everyone and causes bad things to happen to people. I must say that a lot of the Bible seems to be in line with this philosophy.

NO he does not.

He does, however, make you choke in the final minutes of a championship football game.

I have no problem with utopia. :lol2: But this is why I choose to not try to think about it too deeply and accept the situation on faith. Because, if I truly analyze I can find as many challenging facts as validating. Eg. Why would not a perfect, infallible being create a perfect world...at least on his/her second try? If not perfect, then void of suffering? So....I am better not getting caught up in the search for the reason for life.

 

 

Those who choose to think about it deeply usually conclude that it is all poppycock.

He does, however, make you choke in the final minutes of a championship football game.

 

He also apparently hates poor people, since they're not as "blessed" as those who live lives of wealth and comfort claim "blessedness" is the reason for their good fortune.

For what he's worth, Pat Robertson said last night on TBN that he doesn't think God sends sickness on people. Generally, if Robertson says A , I believe B . In this case, we agree but for different reasons. God can't send illness if He doesn't exist. So, no it doesn't happen(by default).

I wonder why Robertson doesn't have a definitive answer to this question since he claims God speaks answers to him about other things, including the paths of hurricanes.