More All timers ? Didn't Bird play in the era of Dr.J, Moses Malone, Magic, Kareem, Isaiah etc...

 

The problem lies in what stats you want to use. If you are looking at total points or total rebounds that proves the player has greater longevity and it does not mean he was the greater player. Using baseball as an example, I think Pete Rose was great hitter and he is the All time hit king but would anyone really argue he is a better hitter than Ted Williams? Kareem has more total point than MJ but MJ has a healthy margin in PPG over Kareem which shows me when Jordan play he was the better scorer and he just didn't play as many games.

 

Where Bird beats out Dirk and where its not close is the fact Bird got it done when healthy in the post season. How many times did a healthy Celtics team blow a series lead to an underdog in the playoffs. Dirk is great and I'm a huge fan but when you can't be in the discussion for the greatest player in your era then you shouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Its close on the All-Timers. Bird played in an era with at least three solid top 10 guys in MJ, Magic and Kareem. Dirk plays in an era with Bryant, Duncan and LeBron. Shaq arguably could be a top 10 guy too for many. I think comparatively they played in the two best eras in NBA history for the amount of studs in the league.

24/10/6 is a sick stat line. I really hated to see him go down like he did at the end of his career. He's such a red butt, you know it had to kill him to lay on his stomach during games when his back locked up.

 

Was looking up stats for both guys and was surprised to see that Bird, most of the time as a small forward (with McHale and Parrish both on the floor) averaged 10+ rebounds in 6 of his 13 seasons. Dirk, on the other hand, as a power forward/center, hasn't had a single season averaging 10+ rebounds in ANY of his 16 seasons. I think that's just another example of how determined Bird was as a player. He wanted to win, and did everything he could to assure that.

 

The longer this debate goes on, the less of a debate I think it really is. Bird should be the clear cut winner here, if you're looking at the overall game. Dirk is a heck of a shooter for a 7-footer, and one of top (if not the best) perimeter shooting big guys in the game. But, he can't match everything Bird brought to the table.

Was looking up stats for both guys and was surprised to see that Bird, most of the time as a small forward (with McHale and Parrish both on the floor) averaged 10+ rebounds in 6 of his 13 seasons. Dirk, on the other hand, as a power forward/center, hasn't had a single season averaging 10+ rebounds in ANY of his 16 seasons. I think that's just another example of how determined Bird was as a player. He wanted to win, and did everything he could to assure that.

 

The longer this debate goes on, the less of a debate I think it really is. Bird should be the clear cut winner here, if you're looking at the overall game. Dirk is a heck of a shooter for a 7-footer, and one of top (if not the best) perimeter shooting big guys in the game. But, he can't match everything Bird brought to the table.

 

A lot of the rebounding stats have to do with the fact that the NBA game is slower now. Teams get much less possessions throughout the course of each game. It's a game of isolation and pounding the ball for 20 seconds.

Feel free to passionately defend Bird in this debate, but to infer that it isn't even close is just not paying attention. Listen, I understand the "why" as to Bird's legendary status, I listed many of them in my 1st post on the topic, but when you look at on-court performance only, while Bird has an edge, it is absolutely a worthy conversation.

 

This sums it up better than anything else: Larry Bird vs. Dirk Nowitzki Comparison:

Bird could dominate a game without scoring.

Bird could dominate a game without scoring.

 

Good point. And if Dirk isn't scoring, you don't even realize he's on the floor.

Saw Dirk play in person. I was impressed with his ability to make shots. Wasn't much impressed with any other aspect of his game. Didn't look like he wanted any part of playing D or rebounding. It's gotta be Bird, easily.

Dirk Nowitzki became the #10 all-time scorer last night.

 

I was talking to MTGL today and we got into a debate about who is the better overall player. He says Dirk. While I lean hard towards Bird I must admit it's not that outlandish of a position to take. Bird had some great, great years but Dirk has been consistently strong for 15 years.

 

And before we start debating let us leave out the "saved the NBA" "white guy" "# of championships." Irrelevant to the debate.

 

Have at it.

 

 

Awesome question Clyde, and a really interesting debate. :thumb:

 

Both are great, and either can anchor/lead a team. They have many of the same skills and attributes, but played in far different eras.

 

 

Basically, I'd break them down like this:

 

Bird:

On the floor, Larry was a much better leader than Dirk, which isn't entirely fair to Dirk considering the language barrier, but it is what it is nonetheless. Bird was also a much better passer, and was a far "rougher"/"dirty"/"more physical" player than Dirk on the defensive end. While neither would really be considered a superb defender, Bird seemed to have a mean streak that doesn't seem to come as natural to Dirk, and one of the main areas where that is highlighted when comparing the two would come on the defensive end.

 

Dirk:

I think that Dirk is/was better at creating for himself than Bird. In addition to the size/length that he has on Bird, Dirk also has a variety of moves and counter-moves to score from different areas on the floor. While Bird is probably a better set shooter, Dirk's fallaway off one foot is a move that he's made a career of, and even past his prime, is still one that he can use effectively.

 

 

 

Comparing Apples to Oranges:

 

Since living in Texas, I've had this debate with some Mavericks & Rockets fans, the premise being: name a team that's won an NBA title since the 90's that hasn't had 2 "superstars".

 

There are 3 popular answers:

1. the Houston Rockets in 1994 (Olujawon, Cassell, Kenny Smith, Horry...);
   
2. the Detroit Pistons in 2004 (R. Wallace, Hamilton, Billups, Prince, B. Wallace);
   
3. the Dallas Mavericks in 2011 (Dirk, Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Marion, D. Stevenson, Barea, C. Brewer)
   
4. 
   

 

Notes:

Houston repeated in 1995, but added Clyde Drexler in the offseason;

I consider Rasheed Wallace a bona fide superstar, though many don't... if you look at his numbers and longevity though, I think it's hard to argue, as his talent was only overshadowed by his technicals;

 

 

Anyway, the point of this is to show that Dirk got a ring with a "superstar" who was well past his prime in Jason Kidd, a gunner who wasn't afraid to let shots fly and got hot in some big games in Jason Terry, and a defensive anchor in Tyson Chandler, and a once athletic "fringe-All Star" who was well past his prime in Shawn Marion.

 

Switch Bird and Dirk on those two teams, and I'm not sure that the Mavericks win in 2011. Switch Bird and Dirk on plenty of the Celtics' championship teams, and I don't think that the difference is as noticeable, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, it's hard to compare players from different eras, but I just made this point to illustrate the fact that, for what it's worth, Dirk is probably far less dependent on the parts around him than Bird.

 

Bird walked into the perfect storm joining the Celtics when he did (remember, he was drafted, but played a year in college after, then joined the team, and only had to carry the Celtics for one year before help arrived in the form of Parrish and McHale). The Mavericks were an afterthought before Dirk arrived and didn't have nearly the same type of history-- maybe that's inflated his numbers some, maybe it speaks to the type of player he has been. I think that because of the era Bird played in (i.e., the Finals were still being broadcast on a tape delayed basis; Bird vs. Magic in their collegiate years, etc.), that his legacy is overly romanticized.

 

If I were beginning an expansion franchise and could have either in their prime, knowing that I'd have to build the team around one or the other as my centerpiece and ride him through a couple of bad, "lottery bound" seasons, I might choose Dirk. At the same time, it's somewhat of an unfair question because the two played in different eras, and, given my youth, lack knowledge on what the NBA of the 80's was really like.

A lot of the rebounding stats have to do with the fact that the NBA game is slower now. Teams get much less possessions throughout the course of each game. It's a game of isolation and pounding the ball for 20 seconds.

 

I understand that. But, when Pau Gasol has 3 seasons, Chris Bosh has 3, and Kevin Love has 5...

Much is made about the HOFer aspect of McHale, Parish and DJ. However, none of those guys were gimmes for making the HOF before Larry made them great.

 

Parish and DJ did solid but unspectacular stuff before coming over to Boston, and I would argue McHale was a huge beneficiary of facing single-team defenses while taking post feed passes from Larry most of his career. Hard to say what McHale becomes without Bird to help him through the early part of his career. DJ and Parish were bonafide all-star types before coming to Boston, so it's hard to say how their respective career arcs play out had they never played alongside Bird. DJ's chances are probably better than Parish's because he won a title before getting to Boston. Parish could play out his career in obscurity in Golden State.

 

The fact that their stats are largely even — other than the garish +4 assist per game average margin Larry has on Dirk — means the championship and MVP advantage tips the scale toward Bird. Including the assist advantage makes it a slam-dunk. Looking at the fact that nobody has ever said "Dirk made this guy better" in opposition to the fact that Bird catapulted three other guys to the HOF means this is a silly argument.

 

Dirk Nowitzki: Great player, one of the best of his generation

 

Larry Bird: All-Time Great, top-five in NBA history

Much is made about the HOFer aspect of McHale, Parish and DJ. However, none of those guys were gimmes for making the HOF before Larry made them great.

 

Parish and DJ did solid but unspectacular stuff before coming over to Boston, and I would argue McHale was a huge beneficiary of facing single-team defenses while taking post feed passes from Larry most of his career. Hard to say what McHale becomes without Bird to help him through the early part of his career. DJ and Parish were bonafide all-star types before coming to Boston, so it's hard to say how their respective career arcs play out had they never played alongside Bird. DJ's chances are probably better than Parish's because he won a title before getting to Boston. Parish could play out his career in obscurity in Golden State.

 

The fact that their stats are largely even — other than the garish +4 assist per game average margin Larry has on Dirk — means the championship and MVP advantage tips the scale toward Bird. Including the assist advantage makes it a slam-dunk. Looking at the fact that nobody has ever said "Dirk made this guy better" in opposition to the fact that Bird catapulted three other guys to the HOF means this is a silly argument.

 

Dirk Nowitzki: Great player, one of the best of his generation

 

Larry Bird: All-Time Great, top-five in NBA history

 

 

Respectfully disagree on the supporting cast. I know what you are saying about how Bird elevated those guy's play, but look at some of the people Dirk has been paired with. Nash was a legitimate superstar. Then you have a well past his prime Kidd, Tyson Chandler, an older Shawn Marion, Michael Finley?

 

McHale is considered one of the best big men of his generation and his footwork and post moves are the stuff of legend. He was also a 4 year collegian who was only the #3 overall pick in a trade that is considered one of the most lopsided in the history of the draft (and which also netted the Celts Parrish).

 

You mention DJ, a guy who is often the third or fourth guy being mentioned when it comes to Bird's "great" teammates (and consider Bird's shorter career), and he'd won a championship before they played together. Which of Dirk's teammates had ever won a championship, either before or after their time with him?

 

 

Finally, there are great arguments that can be made for either, but I feel that one of the most overlooked facets in this thread is Dirk's longevity, especially compared with Bird's injury history and the end of his career.

As for Dirk's longevity, it's easy to stay healthy when you don't go 100 percent on the glass and especially on defense. I give him great credit for dragging a mostly sorry team to a title. Honestly, it could've been an accident of good timing to win the one title he did given the Spurs' and Lakers' dominance during his career span. It's a tough argument to say he made those guys better — more likely it was just every piece fit just right for that team.

 

I just can't watch a game with Dirk and see him affecting the totality of the game the way Bird did. Obviously, it's pure speculation in terms of my prior assessment of Bird's ability to lift McHale, Parish, DJ to HOF status because there's no way to view their careers in a vacuum without Bird.

 

I suppose I'll hang my hat on three titles and MVPs to one each for Dirk, as well as that completely impossible to ignore +4 margin in assists per game. That means he directly accounted for eight more points per game (and possibly more) than Dirk beyond their dead-even ppg average.

 

Again, for me it's this:

Dirk Nowitzki: Great player, one of the best of his generation

 

Larry Bird: All-Time Great, top-five in NBA history

Larry Bird: All-Time Great, top-five in NBA history

 

Jordan

Wilt

Russell

Oscar

Kareem

 

Who are you taking out? Not to mention, Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron would probably also be in that thin air. I'd have Kobe and Bird after all 8 of those guys for sure...just off the top of my head.

Jordan

Wilt

Russell

Oscar

Kareem

 

Who are you taking out? Not to mention, Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron would probably also be in that thin air. I'd have Kobe and Bird after all 8 of those guys for sure...just off the top of my head.

 

My top 6 is

 

Jordan

Russell

Wilt

Kareem

Magic

Bird

 

To answer your question I'm taking out Oscar.

My top 6 is

 

Jordan

Russell

Wilt

Kareem

Magic

Bird

 

To answer your question I'm taking out Oscar.

 

I inadvertently left Magic off my list, he would have made my list of 5 a list of 6. What I get for going off the top of my head.

As for Dirk's longevity, it's easy to stay healthy when you don't go 100 percent on the glass and especially on defense. I give him great credit for dragging a mostly sorry team to a title. Honestly, it could've been an accident of good timing to win the one title he did given the Spurs' and Lakers' dominance during his career span. It's a tough argument to say he made those guys better — more likely it was just every piece fit just right for that team.

 

I just can't watch a game with Dirk and see him affecting the totality of the game the way Bird did. Obviously, it's pure speculation in terms of my prior assessment of Bird's ability to lift McHale, Parish, DJ to HOF status because there's no way to view their careers in a vacuum without Bird.

 

I suppose I'll hang my hat on three titles and MVPs to one each for Dirk, as well as that completely impossible to ignore +4 margin in assists per game. That means he directly accounted for eight more points per game (and possibly more) than Dirk beyond their dead-even ppg average.

 

Again, for me it's this:

Dirk Nowitzki: Great player, one of the best of his generation

 

Larry Bird: All-Time Great, top-five in NBA history

 

Not to mention that Bird played against MUCH better teams at that time, in my opinion.