Yep. Absolutely. (Seriously, this is not a tough one to figure out.) Wait for the next market meltdown, like we had in '08, then ask Joe Worker whether his retirement savings plan is better off in a defined contribution 401(k) or a defined benefit plan.

 

Defined contribution plans were a terrible deal for employers.

Yep. Absolutely. (Seriously, this is not a tough one to figure out.) Wait for the next market meltdown, like we had in '08, then ask Joe Worker whether his retirement savings plan is better off in a defined contribution 401(k) or a defined benefit plan.

 

Okay, based on this statement I can completely ignore your posts going forward. You obviously don't know how DC plans work.

Most solid companies realize that a good sick policy contributes to the bottom line in the way of attracting and retaining good employees. It's sad that there are still companies who don't get it. Still, you shouldn't legislate stupid.

 

Precisely.

 

At the local Community Mental Health Center, I received a sick day a month; they could be accumulated but I forget the limit.

 

A competitive fringe benefits package will help recruit and retain employees even if base salary is weak.

Okay, based on this statement I can completely ignore your posts going forward. You obviously don't know how DC plans work.

Enlighten me. I personally was/am involved in both a 401(k) and a traditional (guaranteed benefit) pension plan. Tell me how a 401(k) plan is better for Joe Worker, especially when we have market meltdowns. The chief advantage for companies to go the 401(k) route is that they don't have to pump money from time to time into underfunded pension plans.

Enlighten me. I personally was/am involved in both a 401(k) and a traditional (guaranteed benefit) pension plan. Tell me how a 401(k) plan is better for Joe Worker, especially when we have market meltdowns. The chief advantage for companies to go the 401(k) route is that they don't have to pump money from time to time into underfunded pension plans.

 

The main benefit was keeping you employed. The old traditional pension plan was simply not going to work the more the economy became global. The option was to kill the benefit plans, fire the employees, or come up with something different.

 

Anyone in the market long term, and a pension plan is long term, will be fine over time. The problem is some people try to time the market. Isn't going to happen.

So you're saying that American workers are basically dishonest?

 

Re: "If they are run well and have smart people in leadership then they know they have to take care of their employees to attract and retain good people and stay successful": That's the Republican/Chamber of Commerce viewpoint. How this plays out in the "real world" is quite different.

 

 

I absolutely guarantee that you know someone, perhaps EVERYONE you know, who has taken a sick day on a day they could have/should have gone to work. Is that honest or not? How about those of us on here posting from work? Honest or not? Yes, the american worker is dishonest.

During my working days I enjoyed an extremely liberal sick-leave policy that was totally separate from vacation days. Now tell me why this is a bad.

 

 

It's not bad and I would love it if I had it BUT i accepted my job knowing that it wasn't there so why sould I have any expectation that I get it?

The main benefit was keeping you employed. The old traditional pension plan was simply not going to work the more the economy became global. The option was to kill the benefit plans, fire the employees, or come up with something different.

 

Anyone in the market long term, and a pension plan is long term, will be fine over time. The problem is some people try to time the market. Isn't going to happen.

You're right. Very few traditional pension plans remain. They're dinosaurs. One big advantage of the old defined benefit plans is that were/are backed by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. So if your company raided the pension plan, Joe Worker still had some protection. Where I disagree with you is that "the market long term ... will be fine over time." Used to be the case, but today ... maybe ... maybe not. With the old-fashioned pension plan, Joe Worker knew that when he retired, he'd get X amount per month until he died, regardless of whether the Dow was at 5,000 or 15,000.

I absolutely guarantee that you know someone, perhaps EVERYONE you know, who has taken a sick day on a day they could have/should have gone to work. Is that honest or not? How about those of us on here posting from work? Honest or not? Yes, the american worker is dishonest.

Actually, the opposite occurred at my workplace. People routinely came to work sick because they didn't want to create extra work for the team. And we had a very liberal sick-leave policy.

You're right. Very few traditional pension plans remain. They're dinosaurs. One big advantage of the old defined benefit plans is that were/are backed by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. So if your company raided the pension plan, Joe Worker still had some protection. Where I disagree with you is that "the market long term ... will be fine over time." Used to be the case, but today ... maybe ... maybe not. With the old-fashioned pension plan, Joe Worker knew that when he retired, he'd get X amount per month until he died, regardless of whether the Dow was at 5,000 or 15,000.

 

Same can be pretty much be done with a 401(k). If you're that worried about the market performance, just invest in money markets (every plan has them), and there ya go. If the workers are too stupid to be smart with their money, it's on them if they have nothing for retirement. It shouldn't be a company's job to make sure it's employees are "taken care of" once they retire. That's on the individual workers.

Universal days is what they're called. Another big-business invention to screw the worker. Like changing over defined benefit pension plans to 401(k) plans.

 

My company changed to this type of policy a few years ago. I now have PTO days instead of seperate vacation and sick days. So instead of having 5 sick days a year, the number of sick days and vacation days were combined to PTO days. I almost never call in sick , so essentially I get 5 extra vacation days a year, and all the days carry over. Somehow I don't feel screwed. :idunno:

 

And I love having control over my retirement plan, which my employer matches nicely.

My company changed to this type of policy a few years ago. I now have PTO days instead of seperate vacation and sick days. So instead of having 5 sick days a year, the number of sick days and vacation days were combined to PTO days. I almost never call in sick , so essentially I get 5 extra vacation days a year, and all the days carry over. Somehow I don't feel screwed. :idunno:

 

And I love having control over my retirement plan, which my employer matches nicely.

You're right. It is four or five days of extra vacation a year if you don't ever have a serious health problem, i.e., a heart attack, gall bladder surgery, etc. But that's always a roll of the dice, and the odds of a medical "event" increase every year we age. And for some people who are financially savvy, control over one's 401(k) plan can yield results greater than average. But that's a roll of the dice, too.

 

Note that some companies reduced or even suspended 401k matches in 2008 when the stock market tanked. So in economic downturns, there's a price to pay with 401k's.

 

Kentucky public school teachers get a fixed annuity (defined benefit pension) upon retirement, and they are eligible to contribute to a 457 plan (similar to a 401k). More private companies should offer similar.

You're right. It is four or five days of extra vacation a year if you don't ever have a serious health problem, i.e., a heart attack, gall bladder surgery, etc. But that's always a roll of the dice, and the odds of a medical "event" increase every year we age. And for some people who are financially savvy, control over one's 401(k) plan can yield results greater than average. But that's a roll of the dice, too.

 

Note that some companies reduced or even suspended 401k matches in 2008 when the stock market tanked. So in economic downturns, there's a price to pay with 401k's.

 

Kentucky public school teachers get a fixed annuity (defined benefit pension) upon retirement, and they are eligible to contribute to a 457 plan (similar to a 401k). More private companies should offer similar.

 

Ignorance of 401(k)'s is not an excuse. If those people want safe, invest in a money market. If they don't want to put money in the market, put it in a savings account. Regardless of what they choose to do, they should have total control over their retirement savings.

 

And yes, a very small number of companies did suspend the match when the market tanked, but it was for good reason. Some of them couldn't stay afloat if they did a match. What would you rather they do, go out of business or suspend the match and keep gainfully employing workers?

Actually, the opposite occurred at my workplace. People routinely came to work sick because they didn't want to create extra work for the team. And we had a very liberal sick-leave policy.

 

Exception to the rule which does not negate my statment in the least. It happens and it happens regularly and to the great majority of people who have sick time.

You're right. It is four or five days of extra vacation a year if you don't ever have a serious health problem, i.e., a heart attack, gall bladder surgery, etc. But that's always a roll of the dice, and the odds of a medical "event" increase every year we age. And for some people who are financially savvy, control over one's 401(k) plan can yield results greater than average. But that's a roll of the dice, too.

 

Note that some companies reduced or even suspended 401k matches in 2008 when the stock market tanked. So in economic downturns, there's a price to pay with 401k's.

 

Kentucky public school teachers get a fixed annuity (defined benefit pension) upon retirement, and they are eligible to contribute to a 457 plan (similar to a 401k). More private companies should offer similar.

 

And KY is struggling to pay those benefits, private companies would simply go out of business. Doesn't seem like that would be too good for employees.