Shaq Retires ...On Twitter

[CatsCatsCats]

The Dream dominated that finals appearance. Hakeem is one of the more overlooked players in NBA history.

 

Shaq was also in his 3rd season in the league Shaq in 2000 destroys Hakeem IMO. It's not even close. And I put Hakeem at #5 all-time in terms of centers. But I don't think it is close between those two.

[bugatti]

Shaq was also in his 3rd season in the league Shaq in 2000 destroys Hakeem IMO. It's not even close. And I put Hakeem at #5 all-time in terms of centers. But I don't think it is close between those two.

Hakeem was the better defender (not even close), rebounder, and shooter. Shaq was a more daunting presence that lacked a motor 100% of the time. Could have been all of those things and then some. Interesting that Shaq never led the league in rebounds.

[CatsCatsCats]

Hakeem was the better defender (not even close), rebounder, and shooter. Shaq was a more daunting presence that lacked a motor 100% of the time. Could have been all of those things and then some. Interesting that Shaq never led the league in rebounds.

 

All that and I still don't care. And was he a better rebounder, or just in better shape? Look at Shaq's playoff rebound numbers, they're out of this world for modern basketball. Better defender I don't know about that either. Sure Hakeem was way more technically sound on the defensive end and was a threat to steal the ball too, but how many people scored on Shaq in the post? How many could have from 1998-2004? Motor is the biggest thing Hakeem had on Shaq other than his great post moves like the "Dream Shake". I love Hakeem, but if I got to draft one of the two players as rookies to build my team around I'm going Shaq every time. I still think during that 3 peat run, Shaq could have won 2 of those titles on about 10-15 teams in the league. JMO

[Clyde]

Shaq's retirement has fired up the all-time center debate.

 

I've always found it interesting how everyone lists Russell ahead of Chamberlain and used the # of titles as the measuring stick. Shouldn't the Celts have had more titles than Wilt's teams? They always had the best talent.

 

What is striking to me is the head-to-head stats. 142 games played against each other.

 

Russell 15 ppg and 24 boards

Wilt 29 ppg and 29 boards

 

Wilt once had 55 boards in one game ...against Russell and the Cs.

[CatsCatsCats]

Shaq's retirement has fired up the all-time center debate.

 

I've always found it interesting how everyone lists Russell ahead of Chamberlain and used the # of titles as the measuring stick. Shouldn't the Celts have had more titles than Wilt's teams? They always had the best talent.

 

What is striking to me is the head-to-head stats. 142 games played against each other.

 

Russell 15 ppg and 24 boards

Wilt 29 ppg and 29 boards

 

Wilt once had 55 boards in one game ...against Russell and the Cs.

 

I agree. I always put Wilt ahead of Russell. I rank them Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem. Moses Malone is up there for me too.

[jvdfc]

Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem are in a group all by themselves. Shaq is in the next group including Hakeem, George Mikan, Moses Malone.

[PurplePride92]

Shaq would be my #4 center. Definitely ahead of Olajuwon who is my #5.

[bugatti]

All that and I still don't care. And was he a better rebounder, or just in better shape? Look at Shaq's playoff rebound numbers, they're out of this world for modern basketball. Better defender I don't know about that either. Sure Hakeem was way more technically sound on the defensive end and was a threat to steal the ball too, but how many people scored on Shaq in the post? How many could have from 1998-2004? Motor is the biggest thing Hakeem had on Shaq other than his great post moves like the "Dream Shake". I love Hakeem, but if I got to draft one of the two players as rookies to build my team around I'm going Shaq every time. I still think during that 3 peat run, Shaq could have won 2 of those titles on about 10-15 teams in the league. JMO

Do not get me wrong, I would take Shaq, but he was not a better rebounder or defender. A lot of that had to do with being in shape and not caring as much. But it is part of the equation. Olajuwon is arguably the NBA's best post defender ever. I am not sure that is debatable.

 

Just typed in the Dream to Wiki and thought this was interesting...

If I had to pick a center [for an all-time best team], I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.

—

Michael Jordan

[48]

[/url] Olajuwon was highly skilled as both an offensive and defensive player. On defense, his rare combination of quickness and strength allowed him to guard a wide range of players effectively. He was noted for both his outstanding shot-blocking ability and his unique talent (for a frontcourt player) for stealing the ball. Olajuwon is the only player in NBA history to record more than 200 blocks and 200 steals in the same season. He averaged 3.09 blocks and 1.75 steals per game for his career.[46] He is the only center to rank among the top ten all time in steals.[46] Olajuwon was also an outstanding rebounder, with a career average of 11.1 rebounds per game.[46] He led the NBA in rebounding twice, during the 1989 and 1990 seasons. He was twice named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and was a five-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection

[CatsCatsCats]

Do not get me wrong, I would take Shaq, but he was not a better rebounder or defender. A lot of that had to do with being in shape and not caring as much. But it is part of the equation. Olajuwon is arguably the NBA's best post defender ever. I am not sure that is debatable.

 

Just typed in the Dream to Wiki and thought this was interesting...

If I had to pick a center [for an all-time best team], I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.

—

Michael Jordan

[48]

[/url] Olajuwon was highly skilled as both an offensive and defensive player. On defense, his rare combination of quickness and strength allowed him to guard a wide range of players effectively. He was noted for both his outstanding shot-blocking ability and his unique talent (for a frontcourt player) for stealing the ball. Olajuwon is the only player in NBA history to record more than 200 blocks and 200 steals in the same season. He averaged 3.09 blocks and 1.75 steals per game for his career.[46] He is the only center to rank among the top ten all time in steals.[46] Olajuwon was also an outstanding rebounder, with a career average of 11.1 rebounds per game.[46] He led the NBA in rebounding twice, during the 1989 and 1990 seasons. He was twice named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and was a five-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection

 

Shaq never won a rebounding title but his rebounds per game is essentially just as high as the Dream's. Also you have to factor in the fact that Shaq and the Dream played in the Rodman era, which was going to kill anyones rebounding title chances. Shaq had five years where he would have won the rebounding title under regular circumstances. Also factor in that Hakeem's highest rebounding totals were during the 80s, when the pace of the game was must faster. There were more possessions per game in the 80s than in the 90s or today, and has been noted by NBA stat-geeks. I remember a few years back they looked at LeBron's numbers at the 80s pace and he would have averaged something like 33, 11 and 10 in the season he averaged 30, 7.8 and 7.2. Is Hakeem a better rebounder probably, but I don't think the gap was that much.

 

As for better defender, The Dream was definitely more versatile. But, then again in his prime how many people scored on Shaq either. As for awards, Shaq clearly should have won more than he did. Was he really the MVP only once during his career? Who was more valuable during the Lakers 3-peat? Absolutely no one. JMO

[CatsCatsCats]

Also I'm not taking a shot at the Dream. The Dream is one of the most underrated players in NBA history IMO. I don't know that alot of basketball fans would have him in their top 20 of all-time. But, I don't think he was anywhere near the Center Shaq was, but maybe that is personal bias because I really do respect and like Shaq.

[PurplePride92]

I despise Shaq right behind MJ and loved Olajuwon but would still take Shaq in his prime over Olajuwon in his prime. He was just too dominant.

[PurplePride92]

Thought I would share this......

 

 

 

Shaq's historical dominance

In his prime, O'Neal's supremacy over the next-best guy was tops all-time

 

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By David Hess

TeamRankings.com

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Shaquille O'NealTim DeFrisco /Allsport Shaquille O'Neal during his NBA debut, playing for the Orlando Magic, on Nov. 6, 1992.

 

NBA stat geeks tend to employ all sorts of methods and measures to argue whether a given player is good, bad or just average. But sometimes, instead of getting overly sophisticated, it's good to get back to basics.

 

The announcement of Shaquille O'Neal's retirement Wednesday provides us the perfect opportunity to do this. At the end of the day, basketball boils down to one fundamental skill: You need to be good at making the ball go through the hoop.

 

Shaq was better at that skill than nearly anyone else who has ever played. Among players who appeared in at least 500 games, Shaq's career field goal percentage of .582 ranks second all time behind Artis Gilmore (.599).

 

The tragedy obscured by that number, of course, is that despite Shaq being nearly unstoppable by human defenders for a solid portion of his career, his offensive dominance was often at the mercy of a pint-sized piece of plastic: the referee's whistle. If you take free throws into account and look at a balanced shooting statistic like True Shooting Percentage, Shaq falls to 34th on the historical list of most efficient shooters.

 

In fact, only 60 other players have even attempted as many free throws as Shaq missed in his career (5,317). If the Big Fella had shot just 65 percent from the line, well below this season's league average of 76.3 percent, he'd have scored over 1,300 more points and upped his career scoring average by a full point. Given that free throw shooting is probably the most coachable skill in basketball, that's a crying shame.

 

Despite that Achilles' heel, however, it's hard to argue that the Big Aristotle isn't an inner circle Hall of Famer. But just how good was Shaq, if we look at an all-around metric that incorporates things like rebounds, assists and defensive statistics? According to John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating (PER), he was one of the best ever.

 

Let's start with the simplest argument. Here are the top 10 players in career PER, according to basketball-reference.com:

 

All-time greats

 

Shaq's career PER ranks him third all time behind MJ and LeBron -- and tops among big men.

Rank Player Seasons PPG RPG APG PER

1 Michael Jordan 1985-2003 30.1 6.2 5.3 27.9

2 LeBron James 2004-2011 27.7 7.1 7.0 26.9

3 Shaquille O'Neal 1993-2011 23.7 10.9 2.5 26.4

4 David Robinson 1990-2003 21.1 10.6 2.5 26.2

5 Wilt Chamberlain 1960-1973 30.1 22.9 4.4 26.1

6 Bob Pettit 1955-1965 26.4 16.2 3.0 25.4

7 Tim Duncan 1998-2011 20.6 11.4 3.1 24.8

8 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1970-1989 24.6 11.2 3.6 24.6

9 Charles Barkley 1985-2000 22.1 11.7 3.9 24.6

10 Magic Johnson 1980-1996 19.5 7.2 11.2 24.1

 

Admittedly, this list is unfair to old timers like Chamberlain and Pettit. In their era the NBA didn't keep official records for blocks, steals and a few other stats, so they are underrated a bit here. Still, whether O'Neal ranks third, fifth or sixth, it's mighty impressive.

 

In addition, unlike Tim Duncan, Shaq earned his place on this list by being an absolutely dominant force at his peak, rather than being very good for a long period of time. Only three players have ever led the NBA in PER for five straight years: Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Shaquille O'Neal. (If LeBron James is the PER king next season, he'll become the fourth.)

 

Over Shaq's five-year peak from 1997-98 through 2001-02, his PER of 30.0 was 4.8 points higher than the second-highest rated player, Karl Malone (25.2). That difference may be the highest edge of all time. Of the super-elite group listed in the table above, plus a few other great players we threw into the mix, Shaq was the most dominant during his prime, compared to his closest competition:

 

Prime numbers

 

Among the best players in career PER, Shaq held the biggest advantage over the next highest-rated player (Karl Malone) during his prime.

Player 5-Yr Peak PER Next-Best Player/PER Edge

Shaquille O'Neal 1998-2002 30.0 Karl Malone/25.2 4.8

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1971-1975 27.6 Bob Lanier/22.9 4.7

Wilt Chamberlain 1962-1966 30.5 Oscar Roberston/26.0 4.5

Michael Jordan 1987-1991 31.1 Charles/Barkley/27.1 4

Bob Pettit 1955-1959 26.9 Neil Johnston/24.6 2.3

Larry Bird 1984-1988 26.1 Magic Johnson/24.0 2.1

George Mikan 1952-1956 26.9 Neil Johnston/25.0 1.9

LeBron James 2007-2011 28.7 Dwyane Wade/27.2 1.5

David Robinson 1994-1998 29.4 Shaquille O'Neal/28.0 1.4

Kevin Garnett 2003-2007 27.0 Tim Duncan/26.0 1

Moses Malone 1979-1983 25.0 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/24.7 0.3

Tim Duncan 2002-2006 26.2 Shaquille O'Neal /27.1 -0.9

Charles Barkley 1987-1991 27.1 Michael Jordan/31.1 -4

Magic Johnson 1987-1991 25.8 Michael Jordan/31.1 -5.3

 

You'll also notice that Shaq's five-year PER peak is the third-highest listed, behind only Jordan and Chamberlain. (Pity Sir Charles, Magic and Duncan, who were overshadowed in PER during their prime years by Jordan, Jordan and Shaq, respectively.) Perhaps even more impressive is that O'Neal ranked second in the league in PER in the five-year stretches before and after his prime.

 

Of course, PER is by no means the only way to judge a basketball player, but it is a sufficiently broad means of gut-checking how a player's overall statistical performance lines up with the historical greats. And the conclusion to be drawn from the above chart is simple: During his prime, Shaq was as disproportionally dominant as any player who has played the game.

 

O'Neal's career numbers are tremendous, to be sure, but they still pale in comparison to his most impressive figure: 3,863,185.

 

That's his number of Twitter followers (and counting).

[SvFan4life]

Shaq was great but didn't take proper care of his body and as a result he lost about 5 years of NBA time in which he could have easily been labeled the best center of all time, with no debate.

[Clyde]

 

Shaq/LBJ/Superman dance

[oldrambler]

Shaq will go down as one of the greatest "power" centers of all time, I loved watching him play. Probably hard to tell how many more titles the Lakers would have won if cry baby Kobe didn't have to have the show all to himself, jmo. I really hate to see Shaq go but it is time. I alway respected him (couldn't stand him when playing at LSU, way to much Blue running in my veins,) lol.

I am looking foward to his presser today on espn.