May not be able to shoot, but in Rondo's case he can certainly score when he wants to, and he has shown that. Half way through this season when everyone was banged up with injuries Rondo became the number one scoring option and put in some big scoring games while still dishing out his assists.

 

 

 

Cats, this is for you too......

 

 

All I am saying is that as good as Paul is and as good as Williams is to me they do not make their teammates that much better the way that Rondo does. Rondo makes everyone around him better. D Will and CP3 may be better players and better scorers but they do not make their entire team better the way Rondo does IMO and I will stand by that. You put Rondo on the Jazz last few years, guys like Boozer and others would more than likely have career high numbers. You put him on the Hornets right now and everyone on the team is going to be more effective on the offensive end because Rondo is going to have them in a position to make more plays and he does so with his savy, his presence, but most of all his passing.

 

 

 

I disagree. You paint CP3 and DWill as shoot first point guards and that isn't the case. They both regularly are in the top 5 in the league in assists and if you watch them both they spend a lot of time setting up their teammates over and over again and look to shoot and score only when needed. I can't recall seeing Paul or DWill force shots up that aren't needed. I think Rose forces a lot of shots, but not CP3 or DWill. I think you are underestimating the fact that Rondo is passing the ball to the all time Celtics scoring leader, the all time 3 point shooting leader and KG who is still offensively efficient. You keep painting a picture that these guys are done when that couldn't be further from the truth. They make Rondo look awfully good and I don't see how that can be denied.

Cats, this is for you too......

 

 

All I am saying is that as good as Paul is and as good as Williams is to me they do not make their teammates that much better the way that Rondo does. Rondo makes everyone around him better. D Will and CP3 may be better players and better scorers but they do not make their entire team better the way Rondo does IMO and I will stand by that. You put Rondo on the Jazz last few years, guys like Boozer and others would more than likely have career high numbers. You put him on the Hornets right now and everyone on the team is going to be more effective on the offensive end because Rondo is going to have them in a position to make more plays and he does so with his savy, his presence, but most of all his passing.

 

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard when it comes to the NBA. CP3 doesn't make his teammates better? Please, please, please tell me you're joking. He has the Hornets competing against LA the two time defending champion. LA has the best player in the series as well as the 3rd (Gasol), 4th (Bynum) and 5th (Odom) best player in the series. Actually after them, Artest may be the next best player for either team. Paul has taken the Hornets to the playoffs a few times and he has nothing to work with. He turned David West into a mulitple time All-Star. CP3 gets to play with Trevor Ariza, Okafor & DWest and Rondo gets to play with 3 HOFer's plus 1 if Shaq is back. I'll be honest with you if you're seriously saying that about CP3 I don't think I can ever take another thing you say about the NBA seriously again.

 

Williams is the same story. He's played with some garbage, garbage, garbage wings such as an old and battered AK47, CJ Miles, and Brewer though Wes Matthews wasn't that bad. Mehmet Okur is the softest big man in the league, and Milsap plays hard but isn't that great offensively. Boozer puts up numbers but has a tendency to disappear against legit big men in the playoffs. Putting DWill on the Celtics would make them unbeatable this year because a team would have to honor 4 very good offensive players. No one has to guard Rondo, teams beg him to shoot it. Just because he scored 30 against the garbage defense of the Knicks I am not willing to say he can score when he wants to.

I disagree. You paint CP3 and DWill as shoot first point guards and that isn't the case. They both regularly are in the top 5 in the league in assists and if you watch them both they spend a lot of time setting up their teammates over and over again and look to shoot and score only when needed. I can't recall seeing Paul or DWill force shots up that aren't needed. I think Rose forces a lot of shots, but not CP3 or DWill. I think you are underestimating the fact that Rondo is passing the ball to the all time Celtics scoring leader, the all time 3 point shooting leader and KG who is still offensively efficient. You keep painting a picture that these guys are done when that couldn't be further from the truth. They make Rondo look awfully good and I don't see how that can be denied.

 

They both average more APG than Rondo for their careers, but somehow Rondo is the more complete PG.

 

Dola, if Rondo is on the Hornets do they make the playoffs in your opinion? I think they'd be one of the 7 worst teams in the league personally.

I'm still laughing at the notion that Rondo is a better passer than Chris Paul. Or the idea that CP3 nor DWill make their teammates better.

 

For his career Rondo is better in one statistical category than CP3 and that is FG percentage. He's close in Rebounds and blocks and that is it. Rondo has played with legends, Paul has played with guys that are lucky to be in the starting lineup in the NBA.

I'm still laughing at the notion that Rondo is a better passer than Chris Paul. Or the idea that CP3 nor DWill make their teammates better.

 

Man you really don't comprehend at all what I am trying to say, and you try harder to twist words than you do anything.

 

CP3 and D Will make their teammates a lot better, outside of Lebron and Rondo probably better than anyone else in the league IMO. Just because I say I think Rondo does a better job of making his teammates better doesn't mean I don't think D Will or Paul doesn't. Where do you get that from anyway? I did not say they didn't make their teammates better I only said that Rondo does a better job of it than they do and that is my opinion and I am not saying it is right or wrong, just different from you guys.

They both average more APG than Rondo for their careers, but somehow Rondo is the more complete PG.

 

Dola, if Rondo is on the Hornets do they make the playoffs in your opinion? I think they'd be one of the 7 worst teams in the league personally.

 

 

 

I put it this way and this is what I have been trying to stress this whole time, had no idea it would even turn into such a debate. But here it is......

 

 

If I was going to list the top players in the league, I would have Paul and Williams both in the top 10, and Rondo would be lucky to be top ten, and would most def be behind those guys. However, if I had a choice to build an NBA team, I would choose Rondo as my point guard over those guys as long as I could put a couple other solid pieces around him. To me as long as you have a formidable inside threat and outside threat Rondo is going to lead his team and do more team wise than the other guys, ideally win. I think Rondo has more winning ability and quarterback ability than the other guys and thats the guy I want running my team. Watch a Celtics game, Rivers never has to say anything to Rondo or call plays, Rondo calls them all. He is the engineer on that train and there is no question about that. Theres a reason he came in and earned his place/respect on a team full of HOFers, and there is also a reason he is now considered the best player on that team.

Man you really don't comprehend at all what I am trying to say, and you try harder to twist words than you do anything.

 

CP3 and D Will make their teammates a lot better, outside of Lebron and Rondo probably better than anyone else in the league IMO. Just because I say I think Rondo does a better job of making his teammates better doesn't mean I don't think D Will or Paul doesn't. Where do you get that from anyway? I did not say they didn't make their teammates better I only said that Rondo does a better job of it than they do and that is my opinion and I am not saying it is right or wrong, just different from you guys.

Let's see......

 

"Rondo makes everyone around him better. D Will and CP3 may be better players and better scorers but they do not make their entire team better the way Rondo does IMO and I will stand by that."- This was one of the craziest things said IMO. Rondo plays with HOFers and competes for titles, CP3 plays with scrubs and gets them to the playoffs, but CP3 is not even as good at making his teammates better as Rondo? Are you serious? So you're saying if CP3 is on the Celtis they have no titles with the Big 3 right now, because I'm saying they have a minimum of 2. And no way does Rondo get NO to the playoffs by himself. If you can't see that CP3 made David West an All-star please tell me so I can stop this convo.

 

"You put Rondo on the Jazz last few years, guys like Boozer and others would more than likely have career high numbers. You put him on the Hornets right now and everyone on the team is going to be more effective on the offensive end because Rondo is going to have them in a position to make more plays and he does so with his savy, his presence, but most of all his passing." Oh, you mean like the 20+ points and 10+ boards Booz put up next to DWill the last few years?

 

Lets face it there are absolutely no facts that back up any of your arguments. Not a single one. Even the title argument doesn't hold water because during that title run Rondo averaged about 6 APG, hardly justifying your claim that he is a better passer than CP3 or DWill. This argument is crazy, put CP3 or DWill on the Celtics and people are comparing them to the all-time greats at the PG postion, put Rondo in NO or Utah and people outside of those states and KY probably don't even know that much about him. What would CP3's assist numbers look like next to Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG?

Now I'm fine if you want to say the eye-ball test tells you Rondo is better but don't try to justify it in any other way, shape or form. It cannot be done IMO. Stats say CP3 and DWill are better passers than Rondo, even though they haven't played with anyone like what Rondo has played with. Stats show CP3 is a better defender than Rondo, and I've seen many PGs say that DWill is the toughest PG defender in the league. Let's not even compare them shooting or scoring. Leadership and intangibles are hard to measure because Rondo won his title as a role player and plays with 3 players in the top 10-15 of all-time at their respective positions, and CP3/DWill have each played with only one guy that was an all-star in their time with them. And both of those could easily be attributed to playing with PGs like CP3 and DWill.

I put it this way and this is what I have been trying to stress this whole time, had no idea it would even turn into such a debate. But here it is......

 

 

If I was going to list the top players in the league, I would have Paul and Williams both in the top 10, and Rondo would be lucky to be top ten, and would most def be behind those guys. However, if I had a choice to build an NBA team, I would choose Rondo as my point guard over those guys as long as I could put a couple other solid pieces around him. To me as long as you have a formidable inside threat and outside threat Rondo is going to lead his team and do more team wise than the other guys, ideally win. I think Rondo has more winning ability and quarterback ability than the other guys and thats the guy I want running my team. Watch a Celtics game, Rivers never has to say anything to Rondo or call plays, Rondo calls them all. He is the engineer on that train and there is no question about that. Theres a reason he came in and earned his place/respect on a team full of HOFers, and there is also a reason he is now considered the best player on that team.

 

The bolded kills any argument you had. Rondo needs other good players around him. CP3 wishes he had another even good player around him but he still gets it done. How would anyone know if Rondo is more of a winner than the other two? Rondo plays with one of the most intense players in NBA history, and who is thought of as one of the best leaders as well. There are not five guys in the league more clutch than Paul Pierce IMO, and Ray Allen has had some huge moments for Boston as well.

What does any of this have to do with me rather having Rondo than the other two? Even the bolded you stated from my posts doesn't say that I said Paul or Williams did not make their teammates better, all it says is I feel Rondo does a better job at this than they do and IMO he does.

 

And as far as eye ball test goes to be honest that is all I am going on, as you have noticed your the only one throwing out stat lines, I haven't recited a single stat line for either. My respect for Rondo all started around 2004 when Oak Hill played at my high school and I got to watch him first hand play with Josh Smith. He had over 20 assists that game and what I was watching at the time was a master at work. The way he ran that team, and the way he runs the Celtics in my eyes is an art form and he is the Picaso. I absolutely love how he runs a team and runs an offense and I don't feel the need to judge me and judge my basketball knowledge because of it. I like Paul and I like Williams, I think they are good players and will go down as some of the best PG's to ever play. To me though Rondo has that X-factor. I mean hes not a good shooter, hes not good at a lot but still some how he makes it happen. He can still score when he wants and when he has to, he plays uncanny D from the PG spot, and he pulls tough traffic rebounds. He has a passion for the game and a passion and pride for knowing that is his team, he is running that team. All three of those guys KG, Allen, and Pierce respect Rondo and have the faith that he is going to do the right thing, you never see them seconding guessing him and for three future HOF'ers that is saying a lot. Again, the reason I feel the way I do is because Rondo makes it happen, pure and simple. He is the driving force behind a great offense and he does a better job of running offense than anyone in the league IMO. That's what I would want out of my PG any day and I will continue to stand by that.

Let's go Celtics!

Lastly to sum it up and make it a little more clearer because obvious you think its absurd I would say such a thing because Rondo plays with better players.....

 

 

But I just feel Rondo gets the most out of everyone around him, 110% out of all those guys. Can you say the Hornets get the most out of Ariza or Okafur or anybody else on that team? To me it seems like Ariza was a better player with LA, but thats just me. Can you say Boozer was better with Williams than he is with Rose? Only time will tell that. Again not even trying to bash those two because obviously they are great, great players who will be HOFers. I just feel that if there is one guy running a team that gets more out of the guys he plays with than anybody that its Rondo and I don't see how anybody can argue than considering the numbers the guys around him put up. Again, Boston's big three aren't 26. 27 years old in the prime of their careers. BUT, playing with Rondo it sure seems like they haven't slowed down much. We got to see it a little bit when Rondo got hurt earlier in the season, but if he had to miss any significant time at all you would see a big difference in that team with somebody else running point.

Lastly to sum it up and make it a little more clearer because obvious you think its absurd I would say such a thing because Rondo plays with better players.....

 

 

But I just feel Rondo gets the most out of everyone around him, 110% out of all those guys. Can you say the Hornets get the most out of Ariza or Okafur or anybody else on that team? To me it seems like Ariza was a better player with LA, but thats just me. Can you say Boozer was better with Williams than he is with Rose? Only time will tell that. Again not even trying to bash those two because obviously they are great, great players who will be HOFers. I just feel that if there is one guy running a team that gets more out of the guys he plays with than anybody that its Rondo and I don't see how anybody can argue than considering the numbers the guys around him put up. Again, Boston's big three aren't 26. 27 years old in the prime of their careers. BUT, playing with Rondo it sure seems like they haven't slowed down much. We got to see it a little bit when Rondo got hurt earlier in the season, but if he had to miss any significant time at all you would see a big difference in that team with somebody else running point.

 

Yes, I think the Hornets are getting everything out of their players that those guys are capable of. Ariza and Okafor are who I thought they were, scrappy guys that in truth are scrubs for NBA starters. Boozer is about the same now, but that could be attributed more to the fact that he was kind of the #1 option in Utah and now he's the #2 or 3 guy in Chicago. Plus, Noah helps out alot in ways Okur could not.

 

My point is that it is easier to run the Celtics than it is to win with the guys CP3 and DWill have played with. I'm not saying Rondo is not a very good player, I think he is. But if he didn't play with 3 HOF guys I don't think this would be a discussion. He is the most dependent PG in the league in terms of needing the guys around him to play well for his game to work. Chris Paul, DWill, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd have all put in work and won with some help, a little help or even basically no help. Rondo could not do that IMO. Rondo could not have got those Nets teams to the Finals, nor would he have been the kind of guy that could get that much out of Phoenix the last few years, Utah would not have been as good IMO, and I don't think if he had always been in NO that he would have ever made the playoffs.

 

I just don't see how a guy that depends so much on everyone else around him makes his teammates better than CP3 does. CP3 is one of the few guys in the league that can make a team a playoff team all by himself. That list at this moment looks to me like LeBron, DWade, DWight Howard, Rose, and Chris Paul. Kobe could probably still do it, but who would want to count on him for an entire season if he had to play all out every game? In the last 3 years CP3 has been healthy he's taken the Hornets to the playoffs all by himself. We'll see the real Rondo here in 2 or 3 years and I'm betting this discussion turns into a complete joke.

^ I wouldn't say all by himself, Hornets are not exactly horrible. Until David West got hurt he was one of the most dependable four men in the league (All Star in 08' and 09') Tyson Chandler had some good years there as well. Ariza started for the Lakers and won a ring, Okafur is more of a defensive presence but meshed well with an offensive guy such as West. Of course they had been better overall the last couple years talent wise than they are now with the roster overhaul but its not like Paul had been in the same situation John Wall is.

 

Don't get me wrong, what he has done has been very impressive but to say he has played with nobody is stretching it a little bit. You take Paul off that team then yeah its a different story but with what they had last couple years along with Paul not completely horrible.

Paul gets his numbers but the Hornets aren't a serious threat. I'm confident Rondo could get his numbers on a team similar to the Hornets.