I think is not that one is superior over the other but what they are perceived as being. Again the education is not superior but the environment probable is.

 

Exactly. I'm with Woody on this one.

 

An education, any education, is equivalent to what one puts into it.

 

Frances

See, I must have made a mistake. Took your comment of hidden agenda and made a bad assumption that may mean no foregone conclusions by your part. But, thanks for making it clear.

 

And as to your multiple choice options you left quite a few off the table. So, just add one to it. Private schools have been suggestion their financial aid only covers "up to 50%" of the cost of tuition. OK, so if you had 100 students apply and had absolutely no ability to pay, would they get a waiver of the 50% or not. And if they would, then the 50% financial aid arguement is not valid. If they would not, then thank the Lord for public schools for many in our country and there, public schools is significantly better.

I haven't attacked you, and I never said that I didn't have an opinion. I am merely seeking all the possible objections/reasons that tuition at private schools is a stumbling block. :thumb:

Overall, your entire post that I culled this from commits the logical fallacy of an argument from ignorance (mind you, I am not calling you ignorant).

:lol: :lol: :lol: Nor am I denying that I am ignorant... that's why I started this thread.

 

Just because those are the only 4 situations that you can concieve of, it does not mean that one of them must be true. It is possible that there are alternative answers that you have not presented. A lot of that would depend on the premises that you have assumed, to build your argument. With those very premises being open to debate, your four possible conclusions are artificially limited.)

I’m not actually saying that those are the only four options. I’m building a list. To that point, those were the only four options we had established.

 

(Nothing draws opinions out more quickly than giving folks an opportunity to point out that one's absolutes aren't absolute. :thumb: )

 

Let's add subtract bend shape as necessary. I will grant you there are many shades of gray in between the main points, but let’s try to focus on the key objections and options.

 

SilverShadow mistakes my intent here... I truly do want to read and understand as many different viewpoints as possible... especially those that actually make sense.

 

Like it or not, we're all stuck with each other, whether we separate or not. To be completely transparent, I have kids in both public and private schools. I am sympathethic to both side of this issue. It's just that so many of the reasons forwarded sound like whining based on emotions and misconceptions more than the actual facts.

 

I'm looking for the facts, good, bad or ugly. :thumb:

...Nor am I denying that I am ignorant... that's why I started this thread.

We both know that we are ALL ignorant - to varying degrees, in varying fields. In your case (and mine) the depths of ignorance can be astounding.

 

 

I’m not actually saying that those are the only four options. I’m building a list. To that point, those were the only four options we had established.

 

(Nothing draws opinions out more quickly than giving folks an opportunity to point out that one's absolutes aren't absolute.)

 

Let's add subtract bend shape as necessary. I will grant you there are many shades of gray in between the main points, but let’s try to focus on the key objections and options.

Fair enough. Of course, the sooner that you admit that I know everything there is to know about this subject, the sooner we can arrive at an answer.

 

 

 

I'm looking for the facts, good, bad or ugly. :thumb:

Man, am I glad you put the word "facts" in there. For a minute, I thought you were casting aspersions on my appearance!

 

Frances

I appreciate your opinion, but if you read any of the many threads already posted on this topic, the public school proponents insist that across similar socio-economic groups the test scores are indistinguishable.

 

Either the publics admit that a private school education is superior, and therefore an incentive in and of itself, OR that a public education and a private education are equal, thus eliminating tuition as an incentive.

 

It can't be both ways.

 

 

Fastbreak,

 

Your thoughts and points have me wondering this:

 

Let's say a Private school had 5 full tuition scholarships to award from an alumni donation.

 

A. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 highest scores on an entrance exam were given them and did not have to pay?

 

B. Would there be an outcry if 5 random incoming students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

C. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming athletic students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

D. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming art students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

Anyone?

Fastbreak,

 

Your thoughts and points have me wondering this:

 

Let's say a Private school had 5 full tuition scholarships to award from an alumni donation.

 

A. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 highest scores on an entrance exam were given them and did not have to pay?

 

B. Would there be an outcry if 5 random incoming students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

C. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming athletic students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

D. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming art students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

Anyone?

 

 

I would venture a guess and say that the only definite outcry would be C, but that if one of the students in A, B, or D, happened to be an athlete, there would be an outcry on that as well.

In this regard, even if every private school offered a full scholarship to every private school student (which I assure you is quite impossible) where is the incentive? What makes a private school so much more desirable than a comparable public school that this makes for an uneven playing field?

 

FB- along your lines of thinking, this is what I've been trying to get explained to me from the public school supporters. Why, I mean WHY, does a young man or young lady, who has attended public school for the first 8 years of their lives, grown up with all of their public school friends all of a sudden just up and want to leave all of this to attend a private/parochial school? Even if they were offered a "scholarship" of any kind, what is the reasoning for this. Is their that much difference in the educations, the people, what? I know all of the obvious reasons, my kids all attended a parochial school, but they never would have thought about leaving to attend another school, especially for sports. Is it parents ego's, or the kids ego's? I just don't understand the reasoning behind it.

We both know that we are ALL ignorant - to varying degrees, in varying fields. In your case (and mine) the depths of ignorance can be astounding.

Dag man... just because I was all magnanimous in my other post doesn't mean you need to go lumping me in with you on the whole "depths of ignorance" thing... :irked:

 

 

 

...even if it is true. :lol:

Fastbreak,

 

Your thoughts and points have me wondering this:

 

Let's say a Private school had 5 full tuition scholarships to award from an alumni donation.

 

A. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 highest scores on an entrance exam were given them and did not have to pay?

 

B. Would there be an outcry if 5 random incoming students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

C. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming athletic students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

D. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming art students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

Anyone?

I agree with Mom... if anyone in any of these categories at our school could tie their own shoes and dribble a basketball there would be an outcry you could hear at the other end of the state... :lol:

 

Otherwise, no one cares... it's only the athletes in the major sports that seem to get everyone all worked up. In part, I suspect this has to do with the fact that the major sports generate revenue for their schools, and that winning teams tend to generate more than losing teams.

 

That and coaches and AD's of winning programs tend to keep their jobs.

 

So in this sense, it all seems to boil down to money.

Fastbreak,

 

Your thoughts and points have me wondering this:

 

Let's say a Private school had 5 full tuition scholarships to award from an alumni donation.

 

A. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 highest scores on an entrance exam were given them and did not have to pay?

 

B. Would there be an outcry if 5 random incoming students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

C. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming athletic students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

D. Would there be an outcry if the Top 5 incoming art students were given them and did not have to pay?

 

Anyone?

A, B, and D are legal under KHSAA rules. Option C is a violation. My guess is that if any of the students selected under Option B could play ball, there would be an outcry.

I understand what you are saying but the classes are there (in public schools) if you want to take them. Where the problem comes in is what may be a required class in private school is just an option in public. The public schools have to offer a base education. Now most, if not all, offer an education above and beyond that. But unless you are very motivated kid with your head on straight thinking about 10 years in the future you will never see the inside of those class rooms. Or if your parents don't push you into those classes.

 

Agreed. My brother attended a public school and had two full years of Calculus prior to college. Public school must have done an excellent job of preparing him for college. He graduated with an Electrical Engineering degree and a overall G.P.A. greater than 3.90 (I don't remember the last digit).

 

Public education and teachers for that matter or not as bad as many would like to make them out to be. Although I didn't acheive the same academic success in high school or college as my brother. I did graduate with an Honors diploma and had credits through AP classes and was able to test out of about 12 hours of college math and 6 hours of college foriegn language. I would be willing to put my experiences at a public school to be at least equal to that of any private school.

Fastbreak, your economic model is all wrong. You are making the wrong assumption the financing of public education is a static amount. The more students enrolled in a school the higher amount from the state. Also, you have growth financing that would kick in if the increase were to hit a certain amount. Also, federal money would be increased under a number of different options.

 

I do not know of any public school district that is thankful not to have more students enroll in their schools vs. many private schools I know that cap and limit the amount of students they are able/willing to accept.

 

No, you are the one that is wrong. Answer this. If all the private schools closed tomorrow and all the kids enrolled in public schools, would our taxes increase or decrease? You are correct in assuming that higher enrollments would be welcomed by the schools along with the money that it brings, but where does that money come from? In Louisville the JCPS system gets tax revenue for not educating thousands of students that elect to attend private schools. I don't regret my choice at all but I'm pretty tired of NEA fuzzy math. "higher amount from the state"? "federal money would be increased"? and this money would come from what source? Don't bother to answer, we all know this one. If you aren't in politics, you should consider it.

The reason tuition is brought up is because it has a clear and calculatable monetary value. Getting free tuition would essentially be worth X amount of dollars. This means that if an athlete were given tuition due to his ability on the feild, the school giving the tuition is in a round about way paying that athlete X amount of dollars.

 

I do want to make the point that FAR more people who can afford to pay for private schools don't choose to do so as compared to those that do. Most people don't see the private schools so desirable as to make that investment.

 

That isn't saying that the private schools aren't worth it to those that send there children there, for many of them they hold certian aspects that the private schools provide at a premuim value, be that religous affiliation, social consideration, or safety/privacy concerns.

The last two points are aboslutely excellent, Red Ram.

 

I would have some reservations on agreeing with your first point, but I understand what you are saying, and it does have merit.

 

Frances

No, you are the one that is wrong. Answer this. If all the private schools closed tomorrow and all the kids enrolled in public schools, would our taxes increase or decrease? You are correct in assuming that higher enrollments would be welcomed by the schools along with the money that it brings, but where does that money come from? In Louisville the JCPS system gets tax revenue for not educating thousands of students that elect to attend private schools. I don't regret my choice at all but I'm pretty tired of NEA fuzzy math. "higher amount from the state"? "federal money would be increased"? and this money would come from what source? Don't bother to answer, we all know this one. If you aren't in politics, you should consider it.

 

Close the schools and let's find out. But, since that is so unrealistic it does not warrant debate it is actually silly. Does the comment "shallow threat" mean anything? Because that is exactly what this is and has no merit. But, if you find comfort in coming up with fantasy set of circumstances, go right ahead.