It was only a matter of time before the hidden agenda became clear! :ylsuper:

 

Tell you what LSURock, you want vouchers, fine. As soon as the private receiving schools agree to accept ALL the parameters of operation the public schools must do, that is fine. That goes from NCLB to everything else. You do not have a clue what you are talking about.

 

I want public school supporters to admit their is a problem. There are other states with similar geographical, demographics, psychographics and other determing factors that for some reason score higher than every area in Kentucky.

 

Why is it so hard to believe students want to attend private schools, when they competition i.e. public schools are sub par nationally.

I respect you a great deal Ram, and you must know that—unlike Frances —I am not someone who enjoys debating simply for the process of debating. I have no axe to grind one way or the other. I am genuinely seeking the foundational issues of this significant disagreement between publics and privates. :thumb:

I understand the point you are making. There is still the monetary difference in that if I don't have X dollars I can't normally attend a private school, the same isn't true for the publics.

I do want to make the point that FAR more people who can afford to pay for private schools don't choose to do so as compared to those that do. Most people don't see the private schools so desirable as to make that investment.

These two statements, (which I agree with entirely by the way) lead one to believe that in a given population of equally distributed academic, athletic and artistic talents, MORE individuals would either through choice or lack of means, end up attending public schools.

 

This is in fact the case with approximately 660,700 K-12 students enrolled in public schools statewide, to just 72,800 enrolled in private schools according to http://www.heritage.org. That’s a ratio of 9 to 1 public vs. private enrollment statewide.

Yes public educations have a value (a quite significant one) but so long as it is required for students to attend the monetary value will always be seen as 0.

Every school aged child in the state is “required” to attend school. Whether they choose to attend Ruth’s Chris or Ponderosa, they’re still getting their T-bone. I’m still not sold on this reasoning, but we’ll come back to it later.

If you would just imagine the following scenario.... You come up to a peach stand with two sets of peaches. One set of peaches are free, the other have a 50 cent price sign on them. In the free stand there are many more peaches and for every good one there is a bad one, it is a mixed set. In the Fifty cent peach stand almost all of the peaches are of good quality. Imagine the vendor goes up to you and says "Hey son, If pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time, I'll let you have any peach you want for free"

 

My question to you is which peach stand would pick your peach out of(assuming you pat head and rub your stomach)?

 

I would be willing to bet everyone would go to the 50 cent peach stand. Even if we all know that a good peach out of the free stand is just as valuable as a good peach out of the 50 cent stand. The perception will always be that by taking a 50 cent peach you have gained more than a free peach.

I appreciate your analogy, and at face value it appears to have some merit. The bottom line as I see it is not the PRICE of the peach, but the QUALITY of the peach. If it is possible to obtain quality peaches on either side of the produce stand, the fact that there are a few rotten ones on the free side is not relevant.

 

Let’s look at it from the facts. If I accept your analogy that there are 50 bad kids for every 50 good kids in our public schools. (A very high ratio of bad to good IMO) And we accept the published numbers establishing a ratio of 9 public to 1 private enrollment statewide, that means there are 450 good public students and 450 bad public students to every 100 good private students in our schools.

 

That means that on the free peach side of your proposed produce stand there are nearly five good peaches for every one good peach on the public side.

 

Even by allowing for 50% rotten peaches, the numbers far favor public schools by nearly 5 to 1.

 

Now getting back to the rules of KHSAA, tuition is simply one more carrot (due to the monetary value) that a private school can offerer to entice a athelete to play for them. The wrong of the situation isn't that a student would be given tuition but is rather that a student would be given ANY preferential treatment because he/she is an athlete. Publics CAN illegaly offer preferential treatment to athletes, but nothing they have to offer, short of a booster actually paying an 8th grader money, is worth any monetary value that wouldn't otherwise be normally accessible.

Again, when we honestly admit that tuition doesn’t mean diddly squat to an 8th grader, when that tuition goes directly to the school public or private. And that unless a school’s boosters provide added incentive in the form of money or inducements that the 8th grader can either pocket, spend or personally enjoy, I really cannot see the difference.

 

We’ve established the fact that the 8th grader has to go to school somewhere. The fact that the school of choice is paid for by tax dollars or parent dollars or booster dollars is completely irrelevant. It does nothing to change the fact that the 8th grader will never touch one penny of the tuition money. So in that sense, I cannot see any possible enticement, unless it is established that the private schools provide a more valuable educational experience. Public supporters deny any real difference in peaches or T-bones, so I’m still stumped at what the big deal with tuition is.

Hey! What about this theory:

 

 

Kentucky has far too many counties. Why don't we reduce the number by half, then every county will have twice as many kids as their property. Leave Jeff Co alone, though. Population wise, we're way larger anyway.....

... Focusing on the price merely leads us into a tautology.

OOOHHHH!! A tautology! I love it. Not quite as much as a conundrum, mind you, but slightly more than an enigma! Nicely done, Fastbreak. :thumb:

 

Seriously though, the only reason I was focusing on the price of a private education was in response to your statement about "value". To me, the term "value" is a reference to the quality of something in relation to it's price. If you had used the term "quality" instead of "value", I would have left the money out of the equation.

 

 

In this regard, you can go to Ponderosa and order a T—bone steak for nine bucks, or you can go to Ruth’s Chris and order a T-bone for forty bucks. They’re both the same cut of meat, from the same critter, with the same caloric and nutrient content per ounce. Depending upon how they’re cooked, they even taste pretty much the same. One will not fuel your body any better than the other. For all intents and purposes, they’re the same thing. What is it that makes one more valuable than the other? (Besides the obvious fact that Ruth gets thirty bucks more for hers.)

I would disagree with you here. The T-bone you buy at Ponderosa is, at best, what is referred to as "Select". The T-bone you purchase at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse is two grade levels higher - it is known as "Prime". Do they have the same nutritional benefits? Probably. Do they cook, smell, or taste the same? Not even close. To paraphrase the Papa John's commercial (that they had to take off the air): "Better Cows make Better Steaks". What does this have to do with this debate? See my comments above, regarding "Quality" and "Value".

 

 

If private schools deliver essentially the same product in terms of curriculum and test scores as public schools, why is it that the service they provide is attributed a value above that of the public schools.

A fine question (where is the question mark?), but it begs a part of the question at hand - do private schools deliver the same product as public schools? The true answer to the question at hand is - some do, and some don't. The answer to your question (why is a private education attributed a value above a public school education?) - I don't necessarily agree that it is. The quality of either a private or public education varies greatly from one institution to another - no blanket statement can be made about either set of schools.

 

 

... I am the product of public schools and a public university...

I don't think the public schools are doing much bragging about that.

(Side note to others that are reading this - Fastbreak and I are good friends. He knows that I am only kidding him.)

 

 

I am simply trying to get at the essence of what it is—besides the obvious price tag—that a private scool offers that makes it more of an inducement in the eyes of the KHSAA than what the publics offer. :thumb:

I've said this before, and I'll say it again - the biggest attraction (to me) that a private school has to offer is that they can (and do) reject problem kids. I also understand why some people are attracted by the religious aspect of many private schools. As for the advantage of receiving a superior education, that is the question at hand - do private schools truly offer a superior education? Short answer - some do, some don't. Same answer applies to public schools.

 

Tautologically speaking, of course.

 

 

Frances

Hey! What about this theory:

 

 

Kentucky has far too many counties. Why don't we reduce the number by half, then every county will have twice as many kids as their property. Leave Jeff Co alone, though. Population wise, we're way larger anyway.....

 

I can and do agree with your suggestion. However, it seems the most emotional anti public school posters seem to have a major problem with Jefferson County Schools.

I can and do agree with your suggestion. However, it seems the most emotional anti public school posters seem to have a major problem with Jefferson County Schools.

 

 

 

I don't understand....Who are the emotional anti-public school posters you speak of?

... You will be on the wrong side of history.

 

Don't take this wrong LSU Rock, but I got a good laugh out of this one. What on earth would possess you to make such a statement?

 

This is a debate about private versus public educations - not a discussion of facism versus socialism. Surely we can all agree that an educated electorate is better than an uneducated populace. What we are discussing is "does one have an inherent advantage over the other?" I understand your view of public education... - but socialism? That would be hyperbole.

 

At any rate, I don't think that history will look back and regard publicly funded education in America as some sort of "Dark Ages" from which the world had to recover.

 

Frances

 

PS - I do love the sound of that line, though. If you don't mind, I'm going to steal it and use it myself. :thumb:

 

 

By the way - all of this talk of free peaches and T-bone steaks sure can make a person's mouth water. Unfortunately, I can't hardly fit into my mu-mu as it is. If I don't get started on a diet soon, I'm going to need to get a bigger poncho.

I don't understand....Who are the emotional anti-public school posters you speak of?

 

Not you, unless I paused you to think again.

 

Your points are always acknowledged and appreciated. Sometimes, just not correct.

Not you, unless I paused you to think again.

 

Your points are always acknowledged and appreciated. Sometimes, just not correct.

 

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

... Sometimes, just not correct.

"Correct" being a relative term of the first order.

 

Frances

"Correct" being a relative term of the first order.

 

Frances

 

 

SS meant it in a purely subjective way!

SS meant it in a purely subjective way!

 

I have no doubt of it.

 

Frances

This is in fact the case with approximately 660,700 K-12 students enrolled in public schools statewide, to just 72,800 enrolled in private schools according to http://www.heritage.org. That’s a ratio of 9 to 1 public vs. private enrollment statewide.

 

Did everyone see how quickly he did the math on that one? THAT is what a public education will get you!

 

Oh sure, he isn't much to look at, but goodness, what a mind!

 

Frances

Did everyone see how quickly he did the math on that one? THAT is what a public education will get you!

 

Oh sure, he isn't much to look at, but goodness, what a mind!

 

Frances

 

 

It's a google thing...he's gifted like that.

Hey - while we're at it, does anyone in here have a good pastry analogy?

 

It would be a crime not to use every course on the menu at least once in this debate!!

 

Salivating,

Frances