Colonels_Wear_Blue Posted March 16, 2010 Posted March 16, 2010 I recently played in a poker tournament hosted by one of my good friends’ fathers. His name is Rick. Rick is the product of lifelong public education and is a very intelligent, very respectable man. All of his schooling took place outside of the area many would consider to be “Northern Kentucky”, and as such, he is not very familiar with Catholic School Systems. Now, I realize that there are Catholic schools throughout the state, however, excepting maybe the Louisville area, I don’t think there is anywhere in the state that they occur quite nearly as densely as they do in NKY. Regardless, Rick has been a self-described “Catholic school hater” for quite some time now – that is to say, he takes every opportunity to poke fun at Catholic school alums and furthermore, he expressly thinks that Catholic schools need to compete in a completely separate high school athletic association than the public schools. That being said, I wasn’t at all surprised when Rick (and two of his brothers) started into a “recruiting” debate virtually the second that mention was made of the fact that I’m a Cov Cath Grad. Furthermore, I couldn’t have been happier to explain to them the concept of “feeder schools” as they apply to Catholic schools, and how taking schools from these feeder schools is in no way “recruiting”. The interesting part about it, for me at least, was that all three of the men I was talking to in the situation were completely oblivious to the concept of feeder schools in the Catholic school system, and that all three, admittedly, had a much changed opinion of the private/public school debate. Now I may be preaching to the choir here, I frankly don’t know, but I thought I’d offer the same explanation for anyone who is interested to read: Catholic school systems and public school systems are both based around the same concept of “districs”, or schools into which students from a certain geographic area are automatically assigned. The public education system refers to these as “districts”, and the Catholic Schools generally refer to these as “feeder schools”. Amongst public schools, counties are drawn into districts, and in general there is (1) or more grade school/middle school within that district where any students in the county would attend school, dependent on the school to which they are assigned – which is determined by geographic location. In that same school district, there is (1) or more high school into which the grade school/middle school students are funneled once they have graduated. Again, this is determined by geographic location, except when a school district is categorized as “open enrollment”, in which case students are allowed to attend any high school within that same school district. Very similarly, the Catholic school system draws itself into feeder districts. They also generally have (1) or more grade school within that district where any students within that district are assigned to attend school – given they wish to pay tuition and attend that school. Again, this feeder district is determined by geographic location. However, in order to attend a Catholic school, students/families need not be Catholic. If they are not Catholic, but still wish to attend, then they are listed as a non-district student, and they are assigned a slightly increased tuition rate, as they are not making contributions to the parish school fund through their donations in church. Also, Catholic students are permitted to attend any school they wish, regardless of which feeder district. In cases where a student wishes to attend school in a different feeder district, they too are listed as a non-district student, and they are also assigned an increased tuition rate. Again, much like public school districts, Catholic feeder districts have (1) or more high school into which the grade school students are fed once they have graduated. Similarly, non-Catholic students and out-of-district students are allowed to attend whichever school they would like, given they will pay the increased tuition rate. There are a FEW cases where Catholic high schools don’t completely fit all of the feeder district guidelines that the others do…such as in the case of Covington Latin School, which has no feeder schools associated with it. Latin School gets an exception because it is an accelerated learning school, and the opportunity is offered to any Catholic students in the diocese. All non-Catholic or Catholic out-of-diocese students, however, are required to pay out-of-district tuition to Covington Latin School.
BirdBrain Posted March 16, 2010 Posted March 16, 2010 [Again, much like public school districts, Catholic feeder districts have (1) or more high school into which the grade school students are fed once they have graduated. Similarly, non-Catholic students and out-of-district students are allowed to attend whichever school they would like, given they will pay the increased tuition rate. Some of this is not entirely true. There are some schools with "reciprocal" arrangements that allow students to attend either of the two schools with no "penalty"
ColonelCrazy Posted March 16, 2010 Posted March 16, 2010 Some of this is not entirely true. There are some schools with "reciprocal" arrangements that allow students to attend either of the two schools with no "penalty" That is interesting & something I have never heard before. Which schools have a reciprocal agreement? I've never heard of this, but my best guess would be NCC & Brossart.
Dlbdonn Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 I recently played in a poker tournament hosted by one of my good friends’ fathers. His name is Rick. Rick is the product of lifelong public education and is a very intelligent, very respectable man. All of his schooling took place outside of the area many would consider to be “Northern Kentucky”, and as such, he is not very familiar with Catholic School Systems. Now, I realize that there are Catholic schools throughout the state, however, excepting maybe the Louisville area, I don’t think there is anywhere in the state that they occur quite nearly as densely as they do in NKY. Regardless, Rick has been a self-described “Catholic school hater” for quite some time now – that is to say, he takes every opportunity to poke fun at Catholic school alums and furthermore, he expressly thinks that Catholic schools need to compete in a completely separate high school athletic association than the public schools. That being said, I wasn’t at all surprised when Rick (and two of his brothers) started into a “recruiting” debate virtually the second that mention was made of the fact that I’m a Cov Cath Grad. Furthermore, I couldn’t have been happier to explain to them the concept of “feeder schools” as they apply to Catholic schools, and how taking schools from these feeder schools is in no way “recruiting”. The interesting part about it, for me at least, was that all three of the men I was talking to in the situation were completely oblivious to the concept of feeder schools in the Catholic school system, and that all three, admittedly, had a much changed opinion of the private/public school debate. Now I may be preaching to the choir here, I frankly don’t know, but I thought I’d offer the same explanation for anyone who is interested to read: Catholic school systems and public school systems are both based around the same concept of “districs”, or schools into which students from a certain geographic area are automatically assigned. The public education system refers to these as “districts”, and the Catholic Schools generally refer to these as “feeder schools”. Amongst public schools, counties are drawn into districts, and in general there is (1) or more grade school/middle school within that district where any students in the county would attend school, dependent on the school to which they are assigned – which is determined by geographic location. In that same school district, there is (1) or more high school into which the grade school/middle school students are funneled once they have graduated. Again, this is determined by geographic location, except when a school district is categorized as “open enrollment”, in which case students are allowed to attend any high school within that same school district. Very similarly, the Catholic school system draws itself into feeder districts. They also generally have (1) or more grade school within that district where any students within that district are assigned to attend school – given they wish to pay tuition and attend that school. Again, this feeder district is determined by geographic location. However, in order to attend a Catholic school, students/families need not be Catholic. If they are not Catholic, but still wish to attend, then they are listed as a non-district student, and they are assigned a slightly increased tuition rate, as they are not making contributions to the parish school fund through their donations in church. Also, Catholic students are permitted to attend any school they wish, regardless of which feeder district. In cases where a student wishes to attend school in a different feeder district, they too are listed as a non-district student, and they are also assigned an increased tuition rate. Again, much like public school districts, Catholic feeder districts have (1) or more high school into which the grade school students are fed once they have graduated. Similarly, non-Catholic students and out-of-district students are allowed to attend whichever school they would like, given they will pay the increased tuition rate. There are a FEW cases where Catholic high schools don’t completely fit all of the feeder district guidelines that the others do…such as in the case of Covington Latin School, which has no feeder schools associated with it. Latin School gets an exception because it is an accelerated learning school, and the opportunity is offered to any Catholic students in the diocese. All non-Catholic or Catholic out-of-diocese students, however, are required to pay out-of-district tuition to Covington Latin School. You just performed one of the Spiritual Works Of Mercy " To insruct the Ignorant ". http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm
PepRock01 Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 The concept of "feeder schools" doesn't really exist in Louisville. It doesn't matter which Catholic grade school you attend or where you live in regards to high school. You have complete autonomy to choose any Catholic high school or grade school which you are eligible to attend provided that you can afford it. In my case I live in St. Matthews, which is on the East End of town. I attended a grade school in Butchertown, near the river and not too far from downtown. I then attended 2 schools in Germantown prior to high school, again Germantown being closer to the central part of town. High school I attended Trinity which is about a mile from where I grew up in the East End. I think this why there is sometimes a disconnect regarding the schools in regards to the concept of districting between NKY and Louisville. I for one would be completely against defining what "feeder schools" any of the Catholic High Schools would draw from here. I know many a grade school in which parts of the class separate and end up at a number of different high schools. Part of it here may have to do with the fact that many schools in Louisville were founded by religious orders and do not directly come under the purview of the Archdiocese.
futurecoach Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 Ok good, now we have a proper thread to discuss these things.
Theoldguy Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 Was born and raised in a tiny town next to futurecoach beloved Ludlow (Kenton County School District). Now he isn't old enough, but plenty of my friends who played Football with me were asked more than once to attend Ludlow. Now it was never the coaches or school staff but fans from Ludlow. Now one of the Boys who I grew up with, did decide to attend Ludlow and play for them, so fururecoach don't ever try telling me that Ludlow never had a player who didn't live in Ludlow play for them. Just isn't true!
jackdaddy Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 The issue on feeder schools is apples and oranges when discussing the public/private debate. For example, in Lexington, public school feeder middle schools are clearly defined and set. The private schools in Lexington who, under the archdiocese, is defined by what? 25 counties? I think even more than that. In Louisville, the private schools have no boundries, defined feeder schools, or limitations whatsoever. So, for example, if a young man wants to come say, across county lines or state lines, or from one end of Jefferson Co., all he and his family have to do is go. If that same young man wants to attend a public school, the family either has to buy and sell a home, pay fees, apply, etc. etc. It is a clear example of policy not being the same. Two sets of policies/rules/regulations. Yet the same schools competing for the same championships.
Colonels_Wear_Blue Posted March 17, 2010 Author Posted March 17, 2010 That is interesting & something I have never heard before. Which schools have a reciprocal agreement? I've never heard of this, but my best guess would be NCC & Brossart. I hadn't heard this either. Can you enlighten us BirdBrain?
PepRock01 Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 The issue on feeder schools is apples and oranges when discussing the public/private debate. For example, in Lexington, public school feeder middle schools are clearly defined and set. The private schools in Lexington who, under the archdiocese, is defined by what? 25 counties? I think even more than that. In Louisville, the private schools have no boundries, defined feeder schools, or limitations whatsoever. So, for example, if a young man wants to come say, across county lines or state lines, or from one end of Jefferson Co., all he and his family have to do is go. If that same young man wants to attend a public school, the family either has to buy and sell a home, pay fees, apply, etc. etc. It is a clear example of policy not being the same. Two sets of policies/rules/regulations. Yet the same schools competing for the same championships. Actually in Jefferson County if you want to attend any public school you don't have to move. All you have to do is apply. Open Enrollment it is called and if you had researched any of this or perused half of the threads in this forum before posting here you would have been enlightened as to the details. Public schools can choose to limit themselves to smaller areas or they can allow any student they want to attend. Frankly the idea of forcing anyone to move just to attend a school strikes me, to borrow a term from the guru, Un-American. We are for choice when it comes to everything except where kids can attend school. That is set in stone by geography and if you want to change that then you have to sell your house and move, a difficult prospect in the current real-estate climate. Why not, if limits are required, try an option that allows for school choice? set a limit according to say 10-20 miles in a radius around a school? The funding follows the student automatically no matter which public school they choose to attend so long as they can arrange transportation. If not, then the student needs to go to the local school.
leatherneck Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 Below is a quote of my post and History's response from a thread in the Boys BBall forum: Originally Posted by leatherneck Not sure what you mean by "meticulously clean". If the schools abide by the rules they are clean. The rules permit some one from Ohio to attend HC and play. The rules permit a player from Boone Co and Campbell Co to attend CovCath. Unless you have actual knowledge of a school violating a rule, then you cannot fairly allege they are not "clean". If people have such knowledge, then it should be reported. I can assure you that it will be investigated thoroughly by the KHSAA. Unfortunately, that investigation may not result in real evidence that a law was broken. More times than not, the KHSAA only finds flimsy hearsay and innuendo. No person with even a fundamental sense of fairness and respect for the law should want any kid's eligibility denied based on hearsay and innuendo if they believe participation in athletics is an important part of education and growing up. I'd rather my son's team get beat by kids on another team that I think, but cannot prove, were illegally playing, than have my son's team win by denying eligibility to those kids based on hunches, rumors, hearsay and innuendo. By the way, I had a son on the Highlands team that got beat by the CovCath team with the kid from Boone Co on it, so I'm not shooting half cocked. Unfortunately we have forgotten what high school sports are all about: and that's letting kids get the joy and learn the lessons of participating in high school athletics. I'm truly beginning to wonder if maybe the best thing for high school athletics is the elimination of all post season play. Then fans and coaches might not get so wrapped up in worrying about who is cheating and what unfair and/or illegal advantages so and so has. Just play the game for the love of the sport and the lessons learned from participating. That's the end of my post. This is the start of History's response: Please see another poster #51 about meticulously clean. Here are my points in summary form: The KHSAA board of control is powerless. Kids are going to go where they want. I am not opposed to this. I think to eliminate the transfer rule will end all of this talk. I am not a fan of transferring at all, but if nothing is ever done about it, then why bother discussing it. The CovCath folks claim that people that play football for them that went to a district feeder school that don't have a football team-like St. Henry-well what were they supposed to do, and they are paying money for going to CovCath-so why shouldn't they be allowed to do that? The Highlands/Beechwood say that if folks are willing to pay to go to school there that live out of district-why shouldn't they be allowed? I agree with all of this, but let's just not say it doesn't go on. For the record, I am for keeping things as they are with the public and private schools playing for the same crowns. I take offense when folks try to tell me how clean their program is. You will never convince me that things are "meticulously clean" or that the KHSAA is anything more than a supervisory body. That's the end of History's response. Here is my counter-response: If "meticulously clean" means never having a player that lives outside the district or transferred from another school, then there are very, very few meticulously clean schools in Ky. If "meticulously clean" means abiding by the rules, then I think there are a lot more meticulously clean schools than you do. Having some familiarity with the Board of Control, I'll disagree with your point they are powerless. Those schools that have been sanctioned and those kids who have had their eligibility denied would surely tell you that the Board of Control/KHSAA has a lot of power. Not sure what you mean when you say the KHSAA is just a supervisory body. If you can look at its financial statements (which I'm guessing you can get through your local high school's principal or maybe it's on line somewhere) you'll find that a lot of money has been spent on legal counsel over the years actually enforcing the rules. In fact, the legal expenses became so high, that the Board of Control decided to bring on a full time in house lawyer to try and save money. If the Board wasn't serious about its enforcement duties, they wouldn't have done that.
jackdaddy Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 Actually in Jefferson County if you want to attend any public school you don't have to move. All you have to do is apply. Open Enrollment it is called and if you had researched any of this or perused half of the threads in this forum before posting here you would have been enlightened as to the details. Public schools can choose to limit themselves to smaller areas or they can allow any student they want to attend. Frankly the idea of forcing anyone to move just to attend a school strikes me, to borrow a term from the guru, Un-American. We are for choice when it comes to everything except where kids can attend school. That is set in stone by geography and if you want to change that then you have to sell your house and move, a difficult prospect in the current real-estate climate. Why not, if limits are required, try an option that allows for school choice? set a limit according to say 10-20 miles in a radius around a school? The funding follows the student automatically no matter which public school they choose to attend so long as they can arrange transportation. If not, then the student needs to go to the local school. Actually in Jefferson County, you have deadlines to meet, applications to fill out, get approved, be accepted, and still have defined boundaries where that are still considered "home school" boundaries. BUT, the point is this.....if a kid does want to come from another state (which is absurd in itself) or come across county lines, the option is to pay fees, PLUS go througt the entire application/acceptance process or buy and sell a new home. For privates, this does not exist. You just go. Two sets of rules/policies/guidelines for public schools and private schools. Yet they compete in the same districts for the same championships. How is that equal? Will private schools be willing to accept a 10 mile radius? They have already said they wouldn't.
PepRock01 Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 Actually in Jefferson County, you have deadlines to meet, applications to fill out, get approved, be accepted, and still have defined boundaries where that are still considered "home school" boundaries. BUT, the point is this.....if a kid does want to come from another state (which is absurd in itself) or come across county lines, the option is to pay fees, PLUS go througt the entire application/acceptance process or buy and sell a new home. For privates, this does not exist. You just go. Two sets of rules/policies/guidelines for public schools and private schools. Yet they compete in the same districts for the same championships. How is that equal? Will private schools be willing to accept a 10 mile radius? They have already said they wouldn't. I understand the concepts of deadlines and "home schools" brother, I have lived in Louisville my whole life. Even so the children are not chained to a particular school, there is a degree of choice. Explain this to me then who sets these limits on the Public Schools and why? The local school districts do, why are they so unwilling to allow complete autonomy to the individual families in regards to their students educations? We hear the mantra of parental involvement being a problem all the time and yet this concept is something that the public schools will not even consider. You can't place one set of rules on yourself and expect everyone else to follow them. The rules we COMPETE by are the same, those rules are defined by the KHSAA. The rules by which we get our students are different because the public schools have decided not to allow complete autonomy to families. I, personally, am 100% for complete school choice across the state. Allow all funding that would be given to a school per student to follow them no matter which public school they attend in the state. I can understand issues with out of state students, but they are not as common as people like to think they are. Eliminate the boundaries and allow the students and parents total choice. Give them a role in their child's education that allows them to set the path as opposed to forcing them to accept something.
History Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 Below is a quote of my post and History's response from a thread in the Boys BBall forum: Originally Posted by leatherneck Not sure what you mean by "meticulously clean". If the schools abide by the rules they are clean. The rules permit some one from Ohio to attend HC and play. The rules permit a player from Boone Co and Campbell Co to attend CovCath. Unless you have actual knowledge of a school violating a rule, then you cannot fairly allege they are not "clean". If people have such knowledge, then it should be reported. I can assure you that it will be investigated thoroughly by the KHSAA. Unfortunately, that investigation may not result in real evidence that a law was broken. More times than not, the KHSAA only finds flimsy hearsay and innuendo. No person with even a fundamental sense of fairness and respect for the law should want any kid's eligibility denied based on hearsay and innuendo if they believe participation in athletics is an important part of education and growing up. I'd rather my son's team get beat by kids on another team that I think, but cannot prove, were illegally playing, than have my son's team win by denying eligibility to those kids based on hunches, rumors, hearsay and innuendo. By the way, I had a son on the Highlands team that got beat by the CovCath team with the kid from Boone Co on it, so I'm not shooting half cocked. Unfortunately we have forgotten what high school sports are all about: and that's letting kids get the joy and learn the lessons of participating in high school athletics. I'm truly beginning to wonder if maybe the best thing for high school athletics is the elimination of all post season play. Then fans and coaches might not get so wrapped up in worrying about who is cheating and what unfair and/or illegal advantages so and so has. Just play the game for the love of the sport and the lessons learned from participating. That's the end of my post. This is the start of History's response: Please see another poster #51 about meticulously clean. Here are my points in summary form: The KHSAA board of control is powerless. Kids are going to go where they want. I am not opposed to this. I think to eliminate the transfer rule will end all of this talk. I am not a fan of transferring at all, but if nothing is ever done about it, then why bother discussing it. The CovCath folks claim that people that play football for them that went to a district feeder school that don't have a football team-like St. Henry-well what were they supposed to do, and they are paying money for going to CovCath-so why shouldn't they be allowed to do that? The Highlands/Beechwood say that if folks are willing to pay to go to school there that live out of district-why shouldn't they be allowed? I agree with all of this, but let's just not say it doesn't go on. For the record, I am for keeping things as they are with the public and private schools playing for the same crowns. I take offense when folks try to tell me how clean their program is. You will never convince me that things are "meticulously clean" or that the KHSAA is anything more than a supervisory body. That's the end of History's response. Here is my counter-response: If "meticulously clean" means never having a player that lives outside the district or transferred from another school, then there are very, very few meticulously clean schools in Ky. If "meticulously clean" means abiding by the rules, then I think there are a lot more meticulously clean schools than you do. Having some familiarity with the Board of Control, I'll disagree with your point they are powerless. Those schools that have been sanctioned and those kids who have had their eligibility denied would surely tell you that the Board of Control/KHSAA has a lot of power. Not sure what you mean when you say the KHSAA is just a supervisory body. If you can look at its financial statements (which I'm guessing you can get through your local high school's principal or maybe it's on line somewhere) you'll find that a lot of money has been spent on legal counsel over the years actually enforcing the rules. In fact, the legal expenses became so high, that the Board of Control decided to bring on a full time in house lawyer to try and save money. If the Board wasn't serious about its enforcement duties, they wouldn't have done that. Leatherneck-I agree with what you say in terms of "meticulously clean." I am not questioning the intent of the Board of Control as I know there are fine folks on this board, but the fact that parents, schools, fans or administrators do not agree with decisions that this board has rendered, and therefore an attorney has to be hired by the KHSAA shows the lack of "power" the board has. The final arbiter always ends up being the legal system. So again I am not saying the KHSAA board is not important, just that it indeed is what it is, and that is a supervisory body.
jackdaddy Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 I understand the concepts of deadlines and "home schools" brother, I have lived in Louisville my whole life. Even so the children are not chained to a particular school, there is a degree of choice. Explain this to me then who sets these limits on the Public Schools and why? The local school districts do, why are they so unwilling to allow complete autonomy to the individual families in regards to their students educations? We hear the mantra of parental involvement being a problem all the time and yet this concept is something that the public schools will not even consider. You can't place one set of rules on yourself and expect everyone else to follow them. The rules we COMPETE by are the same, those rules are defined by the KHSAA. The rules by which we get our students are different because the public schools have decided not to allow complete autonomy to families. I, personally, am 100% for complete school choice across the state. Allow all funding that would be given to a school per student to follow them no matter which public school they attend in the state. I can understand issues with out of state students, but they are not as common as people like to think they are. Eliminate the boundaries and allow the students and parents total choice. Give them a role in their child's education that allows them to set the path as opposed to forcing them to accept something. I, too, brother, have lived in Louisville my whole life. The bottom line is that the boundaries that private schools have, which are none, are extremely larger, different, and in most cases, don't even exist. In public schools, that is not the case. The public schools in Kentucky and the private schools in Kentucky, are in fact, two different animals. For the purposes of athletics, not education or educational choice, or family autonomy, they are two seperate animals. Yet compete for the same trophy. 39 other states have recognized this and have complete or partial seperation for championship play (i.e. the playoffs). Why doesn't Kentucky?
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