As in most cases, you need to finish the story and go onto the NT and the story of Jesus and how we are to view the OT and handle these type of Scriptures.

 

Question for you: Do you believe that God created all things as it says at the very beginning of the Bible?

 

 

Question for you: How can you in one sentence say that every word in the Bible is God-Breathed, then say that passages written centuries before Jesus aren't complete? That's picking and choosing.

 

To your argument that Jesus told the prostitute to "Go and sin no more", you are correct. However, HE is God, therefore HE has the right to sit in judgement and to make such a statement. He alone is the Son of God, a part of the Holy Trinity in the flesh and blood. WE are sinners. How can we sit in judgement of others' sins when we are far from free of sin ourselves? That's hypocrisy. The thought that we should or could even do such a thing, I would equate that to the sin of Pride.

 

We are called as good Christians to live our lives in a Christ-like way. But God made us human, and He knows we'll fail. But only He knows what the final judgement will be.

As an aside, passages like these are the reason I have extreme difficulty in valuing beliefs or arguments reliant upon the OT.

 

 

They are strikingly similar to passages from the Q'ran that most use to vilify the entire Islamic religion.

Question for you: How can you in one sentence say that every word in the Bible is God-Breathed, then say that passages written centuries before Jesus aren't complete? That's picking and choosing.

 

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It is not because the OT was only part of God's Plan.

 

That is like watching the first half of a basketball game and saying that the game is complete.

 

I see it as 3 parts and we have seen 2 parts. The last that is unwritten in actuality but in great detail of what will happen is Jesus' return.

Question for you: How can you in one sentence say that every word in the Bible is God-Breathed, then say that passages written centuries before Jesus aren't complete? That's picking and choosing.

 

To your argument that Jesus told the prostitute to "Go and sin no more", you are correct. However, HE is God, therefore HE has the right to sit in judgement and to make such a statement. He alone is the Son of God, a part of the Holy Trinity in the flesh and blood. WE are sinners. How can we sit in judgement of others' sins when we are far from free of sin ourselves? That's hypocrisy. The thought that we should or could even do such a thing, I would equate that to the sin of Pride.

 

We are called as good Christians to live our lives in a Christ-like way. But God made us human, and He knows we'll fail. But only He knows what the final judgement will be.

 

As far as the middle paragraph if you tell me that I need to remove X sin from my life, that is what Jesus did at the end. It is NOT judgement as we see in that story.

 

Judgement occurs at the end of times and the decision of where we will spend eternity. By stoning her and taking her life, that decision of judgement would have been made on her.

 

And again, I don't think you come to me as RM and point out what you think I am doing wrong but come with Scripture and show me where God says I need to work on getting away from that sin.

 

I agree with your last paragraph. Except add how do we know what a Christ-like way is unless we either a) study the Bible; b) look for advice from someone that does/has study the Bible and can point us to certain Scriptures.

 

And again, I think you mostly do this with believers and people in our life that we have a relationship with.

As an aside, passages like these are the reason I have extreme difficulty in valuing beliefs or arguments reliant upon the OT.

 

They are strikingly similar to passages from the Q'ran that most use to vilify the entire Islamic religion.

 

And why I mentioned and Ace also pointed out that you have to read the OT through the story of Jesus, the 2nd part of the story.

I think it does too. But I don't think it is in the form of an explicit list of things to avoid, or, for that matter, things necessary to be done (outside of the obvious exception). Without this unequivocal approach, how are we to determine when to tell someone that they should stop doing something or to live differently without adding in our own human subjectivity and societal conditioning?

 

I have addressed the obvious sins in this thread.

 

I agree that there are some actions that there can be debate on.

 

But drinking for drunkness (which is specifically laid out in Scripture), adultery (which is specifically laid out in Jesus' words), greed (which is specifically laid out in Jesus' words) etc, etc, is what I am addressing here.

Just for the record, it's not me that's demanding anything of Jesus.

 

And you must have some church that doesn't have any of these kind of narcisstic believers I've met in my years. :thumb:

 

I have not come across them but that doesn't mean they are not out there.

Okay, I've been trying to avoid any overt "Catholic versus Protestant" discussion, but...what of the fact that somewhere along the line, many protestant Bibles decided to remove 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, and Sirach from the Old Testament? These books were originally included in the Vulgate Bibles that circulated for the first millennium of Christianity, and they still exist in the Catholic Bibles. Wouldn't removing these books comprise "I ain't believing that?"

 

What exists in those books that changes the salvation through Jesus Christ story of the Bible?

What exists in those books that changes the salvation through Jesus Christ story of the Bible?

 

 

That's not the premise of his question. If every book of the Bible is God Breathed, then how can you eliminate certain books, and wouldn't it be again, picking and choosing the messages?

Help me here Ace... are you suggesting that because of what Jesus has already done, we are all "saved" and bound for Heaven whether we consciously choose to accept and follow Him or not?

 

I'm not sure I'm following your intent here.

 

The intent is to say, that through the actions of The Christ, we all CAN find redemption. However, "through me" does not necessarily mean an overt act of saying "I accept Jesus Christ as my savior." There have been many and will be many more who have never heard the gospel. Those cultures still have people in them who were 'drawn' to God by some compelling force and they sought the Higher Good. Thomas Merton (the good catholic) even said that the search for God is in and of itself pleasing to God. It is my belief, and through my interpretation of the story in Matthew, that people can be redeemed without having ever heard the name of Jesus, but they serve Jesus when they serve the higher good by denying themselves and taking care of others.

 

I truly deeply do not think salvation is about a set of beliefs, credes or dogmas. It is about a relationship with God, Yahweh, Allah, the Great Spirit, (I struggle with Shiva, et al but who am I to judge) or whatever you have grown to know as God as long as you are searching for God and serving others.

I have addressed the obvious sins in this thread.

 

I agree that there are some actions that there can be debate on.

 

But drinking for drunkness (which is specifically laid out in Scripture), adultery (which is specifically laid out in Jesus' words), greed (which is specifically laid out in Jesus' words) etc, etc, is what I am addressing here.

 

But my point is that even with these sins you cite Jesus mentioning, such as greed, they are very subjective. I think they can mean different things to each of us, thus I don't see how telling others to live according to our own interpretations is what is being asked of us, whereas we are very deliberately told to love others.

But my point is that even with these sins you cite Jesus mentioning, such as greed, they are very subjective. I think they can mean different things to each of us, thus I don't see how telling others to live according to our own interpretations is what is being asked of us, whereas we are very deliberately told to love others.

 

I agree. And I think it is vital that you show the Scriptures to the person that you are discussing greed with and study, discuss and pray about them and let the Holy Spirit lead you.

 

Don't misunderstand me that just because LBBC says it is a sin, they shouldn't immediately accept it. They should study the Scripture pray and let the Holy Spirit lead them to the spirit of what the Bible says.

 

For example, if you and I attended church together and were friends and you saw me doing something you know I shouldn't be doing, I would expect you to call me out on it.

We are no longer under the Old Testament Law of Moses, Jesus has fullfilled the new Law. We no long have to be circumsized for beliefs, no longer do we use scapegoats to carry away out sins, we have Jesus.

 

The OT was for the folks before Jesus died and rose on the cross, we don't bring animals to the altar for forgiveness of our sins, again Jesus,

 

You might ask about the 10 commandments, well nine are mentioned in the New so they are still to be used. We are not Jewish so there is no Sabbath to deal with. Jesus evens tells his followers that he is here to ful fill the Law.

 

In fact when I'm asked how to study the Bible I usually tell someone to read Genesis/Exodus and the Gospels and the rest of the NT.

 

The OT is important to see how God used Prophets/his audio voice/dreams/taking the lives of many people even children/ to get mans attention, now he has Jesus. I have scripture if someone wants to see, but they can go to Galatians, its a quick read.

We are no longer under the Old Testament Law of Moses, Jesus has fullfilled the new Law. We no long have to be circumsized for beliefs, no longer do we use scapegoats to carry away out sins, we have Jesus.

 

The OT was for the folks before Jesus died and rose on the cross, we don't bring animals to the altar for forgiveness of our sins, again Jesus,

 

You might ask about the 10 commandments, well nine are mentioned in the New so they are still to be used. We are not Jewish so there is no Sabbath to deal with. Jesus evens tells his followers that he is here to ful fill the Law.

 

In fact when I'm asked how to study the Bible I usually tell someone to read Genesis/Exodus and the Gospels and the rest of the NT.

 

The OT is important to see how God used Prophets/his audio voice/dreams/taking the lives of many people even children/ to get mans attention, now he has Jesus. I have scripture if someone wants to see, but they can go to Galatians, its a quick read.

 

All of the OT is not The Law, and I don't recall reading anywhere in the NT that says to ignore the old. There is lots of killing even in Psalms where little children have their heads bashed against stones. Since Psalms is not part of the law what are weto do with it?

 

As to the Sabbath, even Jesus speaks of it - the Sabbath is there, but He says it was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

All of the OT is not The Law, and I don't recall reading anywhere in the NT that says to ignore the old. There is lots of killing even in Psalms where little children have their heads bashed against stones. Since Psalms is not part of the law what are weto do with it?

 

As to the Sabbath, even Jesus speaks of it - the Sabbath is there, but He says it was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

 

To realize that while God is a loving God He is also a God of Wrath and that His Word is to be taken very serious and not wished away that every path leads to God and that everyone will be saved.