These latter scenarios can be taken much differently than some of the questions above. If I have a close brother or sister in the faith and I see that they are doing something that is harmful to them or others, out of love I go to them. And I think I go to them in this manner - "what you are doing is hurtful to . . . and will ultimately be hurtful to you. Because I love you I don't want to see you doing hurtful things. How can I help here?' Of course this is only with someone that I have a strong relationship.

 

As for the prostitute, who are WE to expect changes. Only the Holy Spirit convicts. What might be most appropriate is for me to help her find a job so that she doesn't have to prostitute. Do YOU (figurative universal YOU) have an idea of what she could do instead? But to condemn her action when I don't know her circumstances would just drive her away from Christ. That is my pure belief on MUCH of the religion that is on the airways. It is divisive, who is in and living right, and who is out and living wrong.

 

You shine light on evil deeds by doing the right thing, not by pointing out the evil deeds.

 

I don't disagree with anything you said. You try to find her a job and she wishes to stay in that world and suggests that Jesus loves her just as she is and is saved despite being a prostitute.

 

And before you condemn and judge the "religion that is on the airways" go back to the Scripture in John 6:60,66 that I first quoted in which it was Jesus, himself, who put standards out there that drove people away.

 

People flocked to Jesus in droves but when it came down to learning what they had to do to be a disciple of Jesus, they flocked away from him too.

 

I am trying to figure out when is it that a person should be looking to make changes in their lives and choosing to get away from their sinful life as much as they can so that I will be prepared to give such advice when/if I need to. That would be people in my life.

 

On the last one, I think you do both. Jesus did both. The leaders of the early church did both. Since Scripture is littered with people doing both, why would we not do both?

How do you know all of the changes that person needs to make? I think it all depends on the relationship you have with the person. Are they asking for help in overcoming something that troubles them or are you providing them with unsolicited criticism? Maybe they don't consider what they are doing to be wrong in the eyes of God, and how do you know if it is or isn't? It's between them and God anyhow.

 

The examples I have given I have tried to make obvious sinful situations that we could all agree on. Prostitution, adultery, greed, etc, etc, that the Bible lists has sins.

 

If it's between them and God, than I shouldn't be telling people about God because it's between them and God. RIght?

 

Paul called Peter out when Peter was in the wrong. Wasn't it Peter who called the husband and wife out for lying about the money they got from the sale of their property and donated only part of it to the church?

How do we know who truly is a "believer?"

 

We don't truly know whose name is written in the Book of the Lamb.

 

But we can only take people at their word and what their actions say about their heart and try to help people realize the importance of getting their name written in the Book of the Lamb.

Let's say a local church leader is going around preaching about Jesus but he curses, gets drunk regularly, cheats on his family and then pays for the abortions of those ladies who he has impregnated, rips people off in business deals, etc, etc, those of you saying that we shouldn't say anything, suggesting that we shouldn't say anything to this guy and how he is more hurting the message of Jesus than he is helping?

How do you know all of the changes that person needs to make? I think it all depends on the relationship you have with the person. Are they asking for help in overcoming something that troubles them or are you providing them with unsolicited criticism? Maybe they don't consider what they are doing to be wrong in the eyes of God, and how do you know if it is or isn't? It's between them and God anyhow.

 

By reading the Bible and the lessons it teaches us in how we should live our life.

 

On the bolded, I think it is VITAL that we don't go to them and say that LBBC thinks what you are doing is wrong. Rather, show them what a parable of what Jesus said about it. Or Scriptures that indicate that these sins are wrong.

 

I would agree with you 100% that it shouldn't be what I think is wrong but rather what the Bible says is wrong. It should be based on what Scripture says.

The examples I have given I have tried to make obvious sinful situations that we could all agree on. Prostitution, adultery, greed, etc, etc, that the Bible lists has sins.

 

But those can be agreed upon because they are also condemned by society. And even so, especially in other cultures, for example, will those vices have the same disdain? And how do you quantify something like greed to determine when it is sinful?

 

If it's between them and God, than I shouldn't be telling people about God because it's between them and God. RIght?

 

I think that's quite a bit different.

 

By reading the Bible and the lessons it teaches us in how we should live our life.

 

I don't think the Bible is exhaustive on how to live. At least, I don't think the Bible provides a complete list of things not to be done by Christians. There is a lot of subjectivity.

 

On the bolded, I think it is VITAL that we don't go to them and say that LBBC thinks what you are doing is wrong. Rather, show them what a parable of what Jesus said about it. Or Scriptures that indicate that these sins are wrong.

 

So you're only condemning them for sins explicitly stated by Jesus? How many are those?

 

So you're only condemning them for sins explicitly stated by Jesus? How many are those?

 

I would not be condemning anyone. Only God can do that.

 

All I can do it point out what the Bible says about how we are supposed to live our life.

How do we know who truly is a "believer?"

 

I agree! No one really knows!

 

Ok lets go on the prostitute question above. Just because she went back to prostitution a month later, and was still doing it 5 years later, that does not mean she does not believe. I feel if I am a Christian I should never turn her away, I should never tell her that since she is still doing it I cannot be associated with her. I believe that if I do not treat her any different than anyone else, by doing that maybe she will come around and see that no matter what people will care about her.

 

Jesus wouldn't turn his back on her, why should I?

But those can be agreed upon because they are also condemned by society. And even so, especially in other cultures, for example, will those vices have the same disdain? And how do you quantify something like greed to determine when it is sinful?

 

I don't think the Bible is exhaustive on how to live. At least, I don't think the Bible provides a complete list of things not to be done by Christians. There is a lot of subjectivity.

 

I disagree. I think the Bible gives us a clear indication on how we are supposed to live our life.

 

Let me add, in no way am I saying that we are to live a sinless life. Can't happen, we are not perfect.

 

I think the key question is does this sin a regular one and typifies your life. If you are drinking to get drunk 3-5 times a week, that is an issue. Drinking itself is not, but getting drunk is. That is what the Bible indicates.

 

If you are cheating on your family and committing adultery, Jesus covered that pretty well in sermon on the mount.

 

Etc, Etc.

I agree! No one really knows!

 

Ok lets go on the prostitute question above. Just because she went back to prostitution a month later, and was still doing it 5 years later, that does not mean she does not believe. I feel if I am a Christian I should never turn her away, I should never tell her that since she is still doing it I cannot be associated with her. I believe that if I do not treat her any different than anyone else, by doing that maybe she will come around and see that no matter what people will care about her.

 

Jesus wouldn't turn his back on her, why should I?

 

Jesus told the woman who the crowd wanted to stone to go and sin no more. He accepted her but also told her to go sin no more in the adulteress life she was leading. That part of the story usually gets left out.

 

I am not necessarily saying turn your back on her but rather she knows that is not the life that Jesus wanted her to live. To continue to prostitute. And you HAVE to do that with Scripture.

 

If she feels she is doing nothing wrong, why would you assume that she will come around?

I think both Christians and those viewing how Christians act get mixed up how we are supposed to respond to unbelievers and believers.

 

I think there is a key difference and that line gets muddled by both groups.

I'm a Christian leader in my church. I have an accountability partner- two of them in fact. It's been the best thing to happen to me discipleship wise. It's improved my family life, my leadership, and my walk with the Lord.

Jesus told the woman who the crowd wanted to stone to go and sin no more. He accepted her but also told her to go sin no more in the adulteress life she was leading. That part of the story usually gets left out.

 

I am not necessarily saying turn your back on her but rather she knows that is not the life that Jesus wanted her to live. To continue to prostitute. And you HAVE to do that with Scripture.

 

If she feels she is doing nothing wrong, why would you assume that she will come around?

 

Is her continuing to be a prostitute a worse sin than me continuing to curse? Cheat on my taxes? Not come to church regularly? Think ill of black people?

 

In other words, since we're all sinners and we all continue to sin aren't we the same as the prostitute?

I'm a Christian leader in my church. I have an accountability partner- two of them in fact. It's been the best thing to happen to me discipleship wise. It's improved my family life, my leadership, and my walk with the Lord.

 

I think this is great. Did your church do a program to match people up or did you come upon this yourself?

Is her continuing to be a prostitute a worse sin than me continuing to curse? Cheat on my taxes? Not come to church regularly? Think ill of black people?

 

In other words, since we're all sinners and we all continue to sin aren't we the same as the prostitute?

 

Are you saying that as a CHristian, I could do whatever I want with my life here on Earth and still be a believer in Christ.

 

AFTER I have given my life to Christ, I can murder and it's no big deal.

 

I can lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, all those things that Jesus has said for us not to do and it doesn't mean diddly or squat?