RM's comment on "love the sinner but not the sin" got me reflecting on a discussion that we had in a recent Bible study on a similar but not exact same question.

 

We all know and can agree that Jesus reached out to unbelievers and they flocked to him. Tax collectors, prostitutes, etc, etc, etc. But at one point that they became disciples that flocking changed direction and they left his teachings.

 

And we all can agree that is EXACTLY what the church should be doing today. Reaching out to the unbelievers as Jesus did in his time.

 

But at one point in a Christian's maturity does it transform to accepting their life of prostitution, cheating, greed, etc, etc, to holding them responsible for the changes that should be occurring in their life.

 

One of the Scriptures I submit for your consideration is John 6:25-71. Jesus gives his talk on Him being the Bread of Life. Specifically, "I tell you the truth unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day....he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

 

John 6:60, 66.

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching, Who can accept it?" .... From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed Him.

 

So, I again ask the question in this context:

 

It seems there is a point that our life of unbelief and the things that we chose to do that were clearly majorly sinful things (prostitution, greed, hate, racism, etc, etc, etc) are set aside and we begin to lead a life where we strive to follow Jesus' lead while knowing that we are not perfect and are going to sin. When is that point and does the Church/fellow believers have a duty to hold others accountable as Paul did to Peter?

In my best Ben Stein, Anyone, Anyone

Maybe your post is "too hard to follow".

 

When we sin and willfully know we are doing it, its worse than an unbeliever who sins. Go and sin no more Jesus tells the woman, go and marry one man he tells another. Sin seperates us from God, and God hates sin. We must try to live our lives sin free, and when we fail with a true heart we are forgiven.

 

There is only one name that forgives sin, Jesus.

 

Once as a teen I had a Sunday School teacher who worked where I did. He had a group of workers around him and he was holding court. I walked up behind and heard some horrible filthy language from him, this was my teacher!

 

I was confused and scared. I told my class and had to leave the church. I was remember that for my own self worth. "Don't do something to hurt your witness, pretend Jesus is watching you, because he is".

It seems there is a point that our life of unbelief and the things that we chose to do that were clearly majorly sinful things (prostitution, greed, hate, racism, etc, etc, etc) are set aside and we begin to lead a life where we strive to follow Jesus' lead while knowing that we are not perfect and are going to sin. When is that point and does the Church/fellow believers have a duty to hold others accountable as Paul did to Peter?

I don't feel its my duty as a Christian to hold others accountable. I'm real busy trying to hold myself accountable. I do feel that its my obligation to love and serve Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour. I do have an obligation to bear a faithful Christian witness to Jesus Christ, the living reality at the center of the Church’s life and witness. In Revelation 3:16 - So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. AL got it right when he said, "When we sin and willfully know we are doing it, its worse than an unbeliever who sins."

It seems there is a point that our life of unbelief and the things that we chose to do that were clearly majorly sinful things (prostitution, greed, hate, racism, etc, etc, etc) are set aside and we begin to lead a life where we strive to follow Jesus' lead while knowing that we are not perfect and are going to sin. When is that point and does the Church/fellow believers have a duty to hold others accountable as Paul did to Peter?

I don't feel its my duty as a Christian to hold others accountable. I'm real busy trying to hold myself accountable. I do feel that its my obligation to love and serve Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour. I do have an obligation to bear a faithful Christian witness to Jesus Christ, the living reality at the center of the Church’s life and witness. In Revelation 3:16 - So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. AL got it right when he said, "When we sin and willfully know we are doing it, its worse than an unbeliever who sins."

 

But are there not several examples in the early church of the members holding the others accountable?

I’m not entirely certain on what the thread is asking. Are you asking when unbelievers should stop being unbelievers?

 

At any rate, how do Christians know what universal sin is? How can a Christian dictate the lives of others when they are surely flawed themselves? My personal interpretation and beliefs are that, as saved persons, we are freed from sin, i.e. we aren’t required to live our lives walking on eggshells trying not to sin. I think it’s this obsession with sin that holds a lot of people back from what I consider the crux of the belief: loving others.

 

Many so called sins are subjective to each of us. There are many societal mores I think Christians try to enforce through their religion as well.

I was recently lectured by a Christian friend on the evils of debt and how the Bible professes against it (Having read the Bible, I wasn’t exactly persuaded by the passages cited anyhow). Personally, I spend within my means, I don’t carry a credit card balance, I avoid owing interest as much as I can. But, that is simply responsible from an earthly standpoint in most cases. I think financing a home or a car or many other things can be financially responsible, but God is upset by mortgages? That is just a recent example for me, but I think the point is taken.

 

In short, I live the best life I know how to live. I don’t sweat whether cutting some person off in traffic is going to send me to hell or not, though I try not to do things like that as it’s not particularly loving. But, I don’t police other peoples’ lives either, telling them what to do or what not to do or how they should live as I can only speak to how I believe I should live.

You have always told ME what to do....:idunno:^^^^:banana:

 

I agree with Habib, are we judging others when we point out their sins? We also need someone we can talk with and have a person to hold us accountable in a time of that need. I'm having an issue with my Preacher..so I can't go to him, but there are issues I need to discuss, so I have Brothers/Sisters I can go to.

You have always told ME what to do....:idunno:^^^^:banana:

 

I agree with Habib, are we judging others when we point out their sins? We also need someone we can talk with and have a person to hold us accountable in a time of that need. I'm having an issue with my Preacher..so I can't go to him, but there are issues I need to discuss, so I have Brothers/Sisters I can go to.

 

 

 

I 100% disagree. If you are having issues with your preacher then you need to go talk to him, and not other members of the church.

I think I get the point of the question...where is the line at between accountability among Christians and being judgmental?

 

Its a tough question. And, as all tough questions, there are numerous verses/passages to support both sides, IMO.

Let's see if I can reword to clarify.

 

THere was some point where Jesus accepted all through love and grace as believers in Him to where he expected them to be making changes in their lives.

 

What is that point?

 

Example, prostitute walks into a church and that prostitute should be welcomed in love and grace.

 

The prostitution accepts Christ into her heart but a month, year, two years, 5 years, decade later, she is still prostituting herself.

 

At one point does love and grace for unbelievers change to expectations of changes in their lives.

 

The conversation grew from a discussion that people see the church as intolerant.

 

My point is that we have muddled the line on what we expect of BELIEVERS unto what we expect from UNBELIEVERS.

 

Is the intolerance of not accepting a confessed Believer to be drug addict, prostitute, greed, etc, etc, lumped into the way the Church is seen as viewing unbelievers.

I’m not entirely certain on what the thread is asking. Are you asking when unbelievers should stop being unbelievers?

 

At any rate, how do Christians know what universal sin is? How can a Christian dictate the lives of others when they are surely flawed themselves? My personal interpretation and beliefs are that, as saved persons, we are freed from sin, i.e. we aren’t required to live our lives walking on eggshells trying not to sin. I think it’s this obsession with sin that holds a lot of people back from what I consider the crux of the belief: loving others.

 

Many so called sins are subjective to each of us. There are many societal mores I think Christians try to enforce through their religion as well.

I was recently lectured by a Christian friend on the evils of debt and how the Bible professes against it (Having read the Bible, I wasn’t exactly persuaded by the passages cited anyhow). Personally, I spend within my means, I don’t carry a credit card balance, I avoid owing interest as much as I can. But, that is simply responsible from an earthly standpoint in most cases. I think financing a home or a car or many other things can be financially responsible, but God is upset by mortgages? That is just a recent example for me, but I think the point is taken.

 

In short, I live the best life I know how to live. I don’t sweat whether cutting some person off in traffic is going to send me to hell or not, though I try not to do things like that as it’s not particularly loving. But, I don’t police other peoples’ lives either, telling them what to do or what not to do or how they should live as I can only speak to how I believe I should live.

 

Let's say you are an unbeliever in Christ and you are a business person who rips people off within legal means. (that way we can take calling the police out of this equation.) As someone that does not believe in Christ, we should welcome you with love and grace.

 

At some point, you decide to accept Christ into your heart.

 

At what point, as your Christian brother who we have a friendship, would it be reasonable for me to talk with you about your behavior as a Christian?

 

How long is appropriate for an unbeliever to work in their lives and make changes that they need to make?

 

I hink we all would agree that if an unbeliever was cheating on their family by having an affair, we would expect that to stop when they accept Christ into their lives.

 

What if it doesn't?

 

As a CHrisitan friend, at one point do I call that person accountable for their actions.

Let's say you are an unbeliever in Christ and you are a business person who rips people off within legal means. (that way we can take calling the police out of this equation.) As someone that does not believe in Christ, we should welcome you with love and grace.

 

At some point, you decide to accept Christ into your heart.

 

At what point, as your Christian brother who we have a friendship, would it be reasonable for me to talk with you about your behavior as a Christian?

 

How long is appropriate for an unbeliever to work in their lives and make changes that they need to make?

 

I hink we all would agree that if an unbeliever was cheating on their family by having an affair, we would expect that to stop when they accept Christ into their lives.

 

What if it doesn't?

 

As a CHrisitan friend, at one point do I call that person accountable for their actions.

 

 

These latter scenarios can be taken much differently than some of the questions above. If I have a close brother or sister in the faith and I see that they are doing something that is harmful to them or others, out of love I go to them. And I think I go to them in this manner - "what you are doing is hurtful to . . . and will ultimately be hurtful to you. Because I love you I don't want to see you doing hurtful things. How can I help here?' Of course this is only with someone that I have a strong relationship.

 

As for the prostitute, who are WE to expect changes. Only the Holy Spirit convicts. What might be most appropriate is for me to help her find a job so that she doesn't have to prostitute. Do YOU (figurative universal YOU) have an idea of what she could do instead? But to condemn her action when I don't know her circumstances would just drive her away from Christ. That is my pure belief on MUCH of the religion that is on the airways. It is divisive, who is in and living right, and who is out and living wrong.

 

You shine light on evil deeds by doing the right thing, not by pointing out the evil deeds.

LRCW, I'll share more, I had a two hour meeting with the Pastor and he is having some issues with me, so thats where the Bro/Sisters came into play.

 

And that meeting was several weeks ago, so already took your advice. And the Bible says when you have a disagreeement you are to not meet alone bring a friend which I did.

Let's say you are an unbeliever in Christ and you are a business person who rips people off within legal means. (that way we can take calling the police out of this equation.) As someone that does not believe in Christ, we should welcome you with love and grace.

 

At some point, you decide to accept Christ into your heart.

 

At what point, as your Christian brother who we have a friendship, would it be reasonable for me to talk with you about your behavior as a Christian?

 

How long is appropriate for an unbeliever to work in their lives and make changes that they need to make?

 

I hink we all would agree that if an unbeliever was cheating on their family by having an affair, we would expect that to stop when they accept Christ into their lives.

 

What if it doesn't?

 

As a CHrisitan friend, at one point do I call that person accountable for their actions.

 

How do you know all of the changes that person needs to make? I think it all depends on the relationship you have with the person. Are they asking for help in overcoming something that troubles them or are you providing them with unsolicited criticism? Maybe they don't consider what they are doing to be wrong in the eyes of God, and how do you know if it is or isn't? It's between them and God anyhow.

How do we know who truly is a "believer?"