As a member of society, you are bound by its dictates. Jesus taught that you should follow the law.

 

So, the law says I have to renounce God and Jesus. You think Jesus would say I am to do that?

 

He said give Caesar what is Caesars but give God what is God's, did he not?

Matthew 22Paying Taxes to Caesar

15Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

18But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"

 

21"Caesar's," they replied.

Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

 

22When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

Where did I say guide and teach?

I said CHOOSE.

Absolutely GUIDE AND TEACH is one of our most important duties as parents.

But I can't choose for either of my children to get baptized.

That is the core of the reason I don't support infant baptism. THat is me (and admittingly I would HAVE LOVED TO HAVE DONE THAT. Would have saved me years of worry) choosing their salvation for them.

 

I don't see where the public employee denied them the right of anything. I believe it was a revival that the public was invited to.

He denied them by sneaking their kids away. And as teacher and guide, the parent very much should be involved in the child's choice of religion.

Once they reach adulthood, that's a different matter.

 

I won't even get pulled into the infant baptism argument.

 

I won't even get pulled into the infant baptism argument.

 

Anyone got a chicken emoticon?:D:D:D

I am just kidding. It is not appropriate for this thread.

He denied them by sneaking their kids away. And as teacher and guide, the parent very much should be involved in the child's choice of religion.

Once they reach adulthood, that's a different matter.

 

I won't even get pulled into the infant baptism argument.

 

He did not sneak them away. As the Superintendent pointed out,

 

She said that if Robert’s parents didn’t know that the outing was going to include a revival service it was because “he apparently was not forthcoming with his parents.”

 

Other parents were told by their children what was going on. The mother was not. The problem is with her child not communicating with her.

 

Two parents of players, Tim Bruington and Eric Vertress, said in interviews that they knew through their children that the trip would include a revival-type service.

 

Bruington said his son Tyler, a senior, decided not to go. Vertress said his son Matthew elected to attend and that his mother drove to the church separately for the service.

 

In 21 years of dealing with teenage students/athletes, this sounds like a case that the kid wanted to go but were afraid if they told mom they wouldn't be allowed to go. So, they didn't tell mom.

To the bolded:

 

I have no problem with it as long as it is not mandatory and led by students as opposed to the coaches. Were it a parochial institution then I have no problem with it. Trinity, St.X, LCA and CAL for instance it is not a problem because they are private schools with religious affiliations.

 

It may have been planned upon by the young man, however something tells me that if he planned it he would likely have informed his mother ahead of time so she could have shared in the event.

 

I don't see anything wrong with coaches leading a team in the Lord's prayer. Also if a player doesn't want to that is their right. I am proud to say that at Bell Co. football games they still pray over the loud speaker before home football games.

 

As for the young man's plans, you are probably right. He probably did not plan it, but we simply don't know for sure exactly what the situation was.

This comment led me to a thought, you might be able to answer.

 

When a public school travels to play a private school, is it legal for the public school kids to have to listen to a Christian prayer before the game?

 

Does St. X, Trinity, etc prayer before a game in front of the whole crowd? Are there Christian outreach programs going on in the crowd? If there were, would they be legal since you are having public school kids in attendance.

 

 

To answer relatively quickly and incompletely, the football team does pray before and after games. The only game that I can remember where the community as a whole, including the fans, are involved in the prayer before the game is the annual match up between Trinity & X.

 

There are non-Christian students at Trinity, I know. And prayer, and prayer services, are not at all uncommon within the school.

 

As to "out reach" programs going on in the crowd, no. I've never seen anyone actively trying to convert anyone at a football game to Christianity. Now, I admit I've been hearing a lot of Christian prayers lately in the stands.

BF, I used to teach Business Management and every year I would do a unit on Business ethics and I would include a discussion on what is lying.

 

And for the 5 years I taught it, the same thing held true. The entire class with the exception of 1 or 2 would say the following is telling the truth.

 

Telling your parents that you are going to Birdsfan's house.

Going to Birdfan's house and then leaving and spending all night out running the streets of Fort Thomas and chasing squirrels.

They would say that they told the truth because they DID go to Birdfan's house.

It was their parents fault for not asking more questions about what they were doing at Birdsfan's house, would they be spending the whole night at your house, etc, etc.

 

To the teenagers in my classroom over that five year period, they would not be lying in the above scenario.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this issue I suspect. Your opinion on Christianity has told me that much over the years.

 

I look to matters of government, law and international relations as amoral. As such all religions are to be looked at the same way. In my heart I may not feel that way, but on subjects such as this the heart is not a rational decision maker and must be shut out in order to make a reasoned decision based on the law.

And this is why we tend to agree! Finding a Christian who can do that, especially in this part of the country, is rare.

Hatz, can you give me biblical authority that states a person can not be Baptized multiple times?

 

Don't know if it's clear cut to any but here's some thoughts. I'm not against a second baptism if the first was more coercision than genuine believer's baptism. But I do think it is very wrong to continually ask for a "re-baptism" because to me it damages the witness of the act.

 

As to scriptures, we might look at Colossians 2:9-12

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

 

10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

 

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

 

12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead

 

If we are buried in baptism and made complete by Jesus' fullness of Deity, it stands to reason we would want to avoid representing having a 2nd baptism as if the first was not good enough.[/i]

 

I would also offer Romans 6:4 as a possibility:

 

4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

 

If we are buried with Jesus through baptism, and showing the world we are dead to sin and raised in Christ; it would seem that we would want to once more avoid participating in a 2nd baptismal event.

So Hatz, wouldn't you agree that if the kid was not serious about the Baptism, then it was not a true reflection of faith. If he was sincere then it was a true reflection of faith.

Therefore if this Baptism was not sincere, it is meaningless, then a second Baptism would not be out of line. In which case the parents missed nothing. And we should continue praying for him.

If the boy was sincere then praise God, he is a brother in Christ.

As I see it the main rub here is that that most folks who have a problem with this thing are for the most part saying that the coach overstepped his bounds and had no business taking 16 year olds to church.

 

Our society is filled with people who made decisions prior to the age of 16 that they DEEPLY regret. Church has a way of preventing these kinds of decisions, and a personal relationship with the Jesus Christ is a definite advantage, to say the least!

 

As for whether or not the coach stepped out of line consider this; these are our Lord's last words to his disciples.

 

Matt 28:18 & 19, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in he name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

Luke 14:23, And the Lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and the hedges, and COMPEL them to come in, that my house may be filled.

 

I am trying really hard to understand how coach violated any scriptural precepts and I just can't agree that he is somehow deserving of some punishment. I still must applaud his actions. I still say his actions are ordered by the Lord (Lk 14:23) and that he was obeying the great commission (Matt 28:18&19)

 

After having read the story it still seems to be very likely to me that the coach was upfront about this whole thing, to point where the players knew exactly where they were going and just didn't tell their parents. I can't help but wonder how many other places they are used to going without having to ask permission? Just a thought.

So Hatz, wouldn't you agree that if the kid was not serious about the Baptism, then it was not a true reflection of faith. If he was sincere then it was a true reflection of faith.

Therefore if this Baptism was not sincere, it is meaningless, then a second Baptism would not be out of line. In which case the parents missed nothing. And we should continue praying for him.

If the boy was sincere then praise God, he is a brother in Christ.

 

As I stated earlier in this thread, the problem for me lies in the church/pastor who decided baptism had to occur right away and not wait.

 

It can only lead to the problems we've discussed and what I eluded to in my first response to you. :thumb:

And this is why we tend to agree! Finding a Christian who can do that, especially in this part of the country, is rare.

 

 

The biggest part of that for me comes from my background in history. I strive to try to look at a situation historically from as neutral a perspective as possible and the only way that can be done, in my opinion, is to disassociate your religious beliefs along with as many cultural mores and norms as possible. Otherwise you risk judging people of a different time and society improperly.

 

When examining something as a historian I do not place "right, wrong, good or evil" into the equation. I simply analyze the information at hand.

Fat, I'm not Hatz but I was raised in the Bible Belt...Paul says in Ephesians 4:4:5...There is one body and one Spirit just as you were called to one hope when you were called One LORD, one faith one Baptism. But there is not a set law about how many times to get Baptized. I've met many folks who were Baptized as a teen/child and decided to do it again as they drew closer to the LORD.

 

Trinity has a FCA and they meet with Coach Maddox who is the sponser.

 

St X does not but they have been speaking to the FCA about starting one.

 

A coach can be the leader but at school, they are not allowed to lead the services. These are held at the school during non school hours and you can have a full scale Gospel meeting. If a child decided to give his heart to Jesus like I said before they would encourage them to the Church.

BF, I used to teach Business Management and every year I would do a unit on Business ethics and I would include a discussion on what is lying.

 

And for the 5 years I taught it, the same thing held true. The entire class with the exception of 1 or 2 would say the following is telling the truth.

 

Telling your parents that you are going to Birdsfan's house.

Going to Birdfan's house and then leaving and spending all night out running the streets of Fort Thomas and chasing squirrels.

They would say that they told the truth because they DID go to Birdfan's house.

It was their parents fault for not asking more questions about what they were doing at Birdsfan's house, would they be spending the whole night at your house, etc, etc.

 

To the teenagers in my classroom over that five year period, they would not be lying in the above scenario.

Well, see...there you are. Anyone who would fraternize with yard vermin is obviously of questionable moral fiber. :irked: