Some of us started a discussion in one of the game threads about the size of a school mattering. I didn't want to threadjack, so here is the thread.

 

Some will say that I don't know what I am talking about, and that is OK, but I don't think there is necessarily a definite advantage to a school that has more students over a school that has fewer students.

 

I read it all the time on here, and I just can't agree with it. People say, "That school should win, because they are bigger.", or "This is an upset, because that school is smaller and should not win".

 

Now, someone is going to throw Trinity and St. Xavier out as examples, and, all though they are big schools, that is not the reason for their success. If it was, Henderson County and Paul Dunbar would be world killers.

 

Take Highlands for example, they are a 3A school by enrollment, but have won back to back State Championships in 5A. If the size argument was true, that could not happen. Now, someone is going to say that Highlands is not a typical 3A school. True, but still, without the proper numbers, they should not win in 5A if the size argument was true.

 

Beechwood, can and has beaten bigger schools, that could not happen if the size argument was true.

 

It has been explained to me on here that if you have more numbers to draw from, you will find more quality players. I don't buy into that either. I think the more quality players you have to choose from, the more special players you will find. But not the previous. Take for example, if you have a school with 2,000 students, and they only have 20 very good athletes, and you have a school with 500 students, and they have 20 very good athletes, who wins? 20 good athletes are 20 good athletes, no matter what the enrollment of the school is.

 

I think the size argument is just an excuse. Pure and simple.

 

Now, I am not saying that a little school that struggles to complete can win a 6A State Championship, and I am not saying this, or any argument is all inclusive. But, I am saying there are 1A schools that can beat some, not all, but some 6A schools, and there are some 2A schools that can beat some 5A schools. And that is because those programs are well ran, and thrive, it really has little to do with the number of enrollment.

Size of school does increase the odds that there will be more good athletes to choose from. But if they aren't coached well or the support structure isn't in place, it won't matter a hill of beans.

Size of school does increase the odds that there will be more good athletes to choose from.

 

I just don't see it. We are talking about statistics. And statistics are not all inclusive. Like you said, they have to have a good program. I think the quality of the program is more important then the enrollment numbers. And that is what I am getting at.

 

Algebra equation:

Team 1 (big enrollment X poor program) = Team 2 (smaller enrollment X quality program)

 

Which team wins?

I just don't see it. We are talking about statistics. And statistics are not all inclusive. Like you said, they have to have a good program. I think the quality of the program is more important then the enrollment numbers. And that is what I am getting at.

 

Algebra equation:

Team 1 (big enrollment X poor program) = Team 2 (smaller enrollment X quality program)

 

Which team wins?

 

Okay, how about:

 

Team 1 (big enrollment x quality program) > Team 2 (smaller enrollment x quallity program)?

 

It is necessary to have a quality program to have sustained success no matter what the size of the school. However, it is not that simple. Let's assume that 2 schools of different sizes are given coaches and resources of the same level. Now as a rule a certain percentage of the male population (let's just use 5% for this) are superior athletically. The a school with 2000 students would have 100 quality athletes while a school with 400 would have 20. Now obviously not all quality athletes will play football but lets just assume for this example that they do. 20 athletes would seem to be enough to compete with the bigger school since only 11 play at one time, right? Not exactly. Each school has their exceptional athletes spread out over 4 classes. That means that the larger school will generally have a much larger amount of upperclassmen who are good athletes and as a rule good upperclassmen beat good underclassmen.

 

None of this is exact but some of your examples prove the rule that size does matter if the coaching and resources are equal. Can Beechwood consistantly play with St. X and Trinity? No, and they have a great program. How many of the top 1A and 2A teams could defeat Henry Clay this year? Sure, there are several small schools that can beat larger schools but in general a small school is up against the wall when having to play a quality larger school.

This topic came up last night when I interjected the following into the thread on 1A Mayfield clobbering 6A Marshall County:

 

"It's really sad when a 1A school takes a 6A school to the woodshed like this. It actually makes you think that there is much more to winning football games than having a much BIGGER school. :ohbrother:"

 

I agree with Ram in thinking that many of the other elements, which define a successful football program, outway the population of students from which the school can draw.

I think it has more to do with participation than enrollment, I know that Monroe County hasn't grown any as a school in quite a while yet more kids are participating in football than ever before. I don't think its a coincidence that Monroe County's most successful teams have also been the largest (number wise)... For instance when I graduated we had 38 players on our team and 8 seniors, last years team had 18 seniors and this years team has 76 players total, 28 of those are freshman that’s just 10 less than we had on the entire team when I played…

Here's my opinion.

 

I think size matters. Not the size of the school, but the size of the area the school is located in. The quality of the program matters more than the size of the school when comparing schools within in a particular area or radius. However, the size of the area trumps the quality of the program.

 

To use your school as an example, Ram, the small 1A school Raceland might build itself to be the premiere program in our Northeastern Kentucky area. This would mean they have two things going for them, they have a good feeder program and they are attracting some of the best players from other nearby schools. In this case, size wouldn't matter. They could remain a small school and have the top program in our area.

 

However, when they ran into even mediocre programs from the Cincinnati, Louisville, or Lexington areas, they would still probably lose most every time. That's because size matters! Those areas have such an advantage in numbers on our Northeastern Kentucky area that even the mediocre teams from there always seem to have more quality athletes than the best we can offer.

 

For example, Campbell County, considered by most to be a mediocre Northern Kentucky team this year, demolished Ashland, the best in our area, in a scrimmage last week. We've seen this story repeated over and over throughout time.

Ryan, I understand your argument, but there are several teams in the Cinci area that are not that good. Why aren't they just as good as the other Northern Kentucky teams? They have a large area to draw from. They should have a killer team, right? But, they do not. Why? Because they don't have the program, or name recognition to draw quality players.

 

Your example of Raceland: yes they are a small school, and yes they have a quality feeder program, and yes they draw future players from the surrounding area, and yes they remain a small school, and yes they are a quality program that beats programs a lot bigger then them. And they do it will less enrollment. It speaks to there program, not the population, or enrollment.

 

The same could be said about Russell, they are two miles from Raceland, a quality program, with a quality feeder system, small enrollment, and they draw players from around the area. A good program with small enrollment that beats teams bigger then them and has competed with teams around the state.

 

I won't address the Ashland scrimmage, I don't put any stock in scrimmage scores.

Size does not matter its 11 vs 11 if a small school has a few good players "HC" then there is no reason why they couldnt play with bigger schools. The only advantage i see is if its an all boys school with thousands of guys to choose from.

Ask Johnson Central if size matters. They are a bigger school than Boyle County, but they got manhandled last night. Boyle also beat at-the-time ranked 6A schools Henry Clay and Lafayette last year as well.

 

I don't think size matters at all. I think it has to do with the particular program and the talent that is actually on the playing field. Like someone mentioned, a bigger school may actually have a lot more talent walking the halls, but if they aren't on the field, it doesn't matter. Also, at the larger schools you are more apt to run into athletes that may play basketball, baseball, etc. and not necessarily play football even though they may have the talent to help out the football team tremendously.

Size matters. It's not the only factor but it cannot be ignored. All other things equal, the bigger school will come out on top most of the time. Are there exceptions to this rule? certainly. But generally speaking the more kids you are pulling from the better quality athletes you will get.

We can debate till the cows come home; it is all about size and coaching if you have these two you will consistantly produce a winning program... No ifs, ands or buts!

How can anyone deny that size is a factor. Is it the most important factor? No but it is a factor. People like to say a team can only put 11 on the field or whatever but that is not true. A team that can play 18-30 different players has an advantage. It is about the coaching and the drop off between the players. The size of the school helps equal that out if not increase that gap.

If size doesn't matter, why have classes?

Size does not matter its 11 vs 11 if a small school has a few good players "HC" then there is no reason why they couldnt play with bigger schools. The only advantage i see is if its an all boys school with thousands of guys to choose from.

 

That's exactly my thoughts on that. I have sooooooo many people that I talk to that have their boy in an all boys school that seems to think that having all boys is not an advantage. How can it not? :idunno: