You can justify in many ways having tons of money, but the scripture says not to let the one who has much have too much and the one who has little have too little. Given the people that I work with everyday, I know that my much is too much and their little is too little.

Let's say, acemona, that you make $50,000 and donate $30,000. You are offered a job that makes $150,000, and you realize that you could donate $130,000. Would it be sinful to take the job?

You vote for a government that lets the free hand of the market - which has not moral compass - guide our economy and I'll vote for the one that tries to take care of the least of our citizens. It is prett simple. We have a choice, you make yours and I'll make mine and I will work for the government that cares the most.

I am telling you that I believe that the best thing for the poor is the free market. The high taxation of big government puts a burden on our economy that does many things, mainly A) slow economic growth and B) provide less jobs.

 

With jobs, the poor would no longer need welfare.

 

With growth, better technology, medical research, etc. have allowed our poor to be the most well-off poor in the world.

 

IMO, high taxation causes more poverty then it prevents.

In looking at history of now long dead great civilizations, you will find among the reasons for their decline and eventually destruction high taxation and government bureacacy. Then along comes government regulation and the corruption that comes with big government and the populous less willing to work hard, because they come to believe the government will take care of them or people are tired of working hard to see it taken by government for redistribution.

In looking at history of now long dead great civilizations, you will find among the reasons for their decline and eventually destruction high taxation and government bureacacy. Then along comes government regulation and the corruption that comes with big government and the populous less willing to work hard, because they come to believe the government will take care of them or people are tired of working hard to see it taken by government for redistribution.

 

Evidence? Examples? Take your word for it?

How much wealth results in too much greed, per the scriptures? If I own 7 homes and 10 cars and a private jet, am I greedy? Where is the line?

TB you should really read "Everything Must Change" by Brian McClaren. Not b/c of this post, but from others I have seen you make.

 

As to Greed . . . it is not Jesus but Paul in his second letter to the Corinthians

 

13ff "I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it s a question of FAIR BALANCE BETWEEN YOUR PRESENT ABUNDANCE AND THEIR NEED so that their abundance may be for your need in order that there may be a FAIR BALANCE. As it is written (and I think this is very powerful considering how opposed this board is to wealth redistribution) The one who had much did not have too much, and the one who had little did not have too little.

 

That is just awesome.

 

Does Jesus expect Christians to be forced to do it without much thought or expect it to come from the heart?

 

Does wealth distribution in the form of taxes do anything to show a Christian heart?

 

If it is okay to be forced, does your church ENFORCE a MANDATORY tithing of 15 to 50% of your income so they can redistribute it? There is nothing preventing a church from doing what you are suggesting.

There is nothing preventing a church from doing what you are suggesting.

Nothing other than a rapid and sustained decline in membership... :lol:

Evidence? Examples? Take your word for it?

 

Take a look at most any high school World Civ. History book and that is the list of reasons the authors will give as reasons for a civilizations decline.

Take a look at most any high school World Civ. History book and that is the list of reasons the authors will give as reasons for a civilizations decline.

 

:lol: OK. I will take that as a "no I can't."

 

I just find it humorous that the "great civilizations of the past" are simultaneous examples of why we shouldn't be in Iraq, why we shouldn't have welfare, why we should live in a theocracy, etc. or we are in peril of collapse.

:lol: OK. I will take that as a "no I can't."

 

I just find it humorous that the "great civilizations of the past" are simultaneous examples of why we shouldn't be in Iraq, why we shouldn't have welfare, why we should live in a theocracy, etc. or we are in peril of collapse.

 

Awesome Avatar, Habib. :thumb:

" If that makes you or others feel more noble go for it. As far as that goes, there’s nothing preventing you from giving everything you earn and own to the poor. IMO you seem to be applying the instructions Jesus and Paul gave to us as individual believers and followers of Christ to a secular government that demands payment in the form of taxes in order to redistribute finances from higher to lower levels with no (or at least not enough) balances requiring some effort on the part of the recipients.

 

I disagree with your assertion that, “Jesus nor Paul nor any of the prophets talk about whether people deserve help or not. they simply say that we help them.” Paul makes it very clear that, "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

 

He goes on in Timothy to state that, “If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

 

Why do we want a government that renders fathers worse than unbelievers?

 

Why do we want a government that basically steps up and takes the place of fathers... allowing them to essentially donate their share of biological material and then run off with no strings attached?

 

The fact that my government can imprison me for not paying my "fair share" removes the whole Christian "grace" element from the equation. By rendering unto Caesar (government) what is Caesar's when Caesar is attempting to supplant God in our lives and charitable giving, how are we to have any to give God what is God's?

 

I am for smaller government and lower taxes. Thomas Jefferson was particularly eloquent on the problem of government debt and taxes:

 

'To preserve (the) independence (of the people), we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers.'

 

WOW.

 

Considering that this was a bunch of guys who went to war over a hike in the tax on tea, I’d say the founding fathers never imagined, much less intended a federal tax structure and bloated buracracy like we have today. I’m convinced that by lightening the governmental requirements, you would see charitable “Christian” giving rise exponentially.

 

 

Can you give me the scripture on those quotes . . . not that I am doubting you, but I want to read the context . . .

 

 

As for the great civilizations, trade deficit had a lot to do with the decline. As more and more bullion left the great country to go to other countries for less expensive or more desired goods the weaker the country became. Power was based on wealth. As the free market worked its magic the great countries became weak because they imported much more than they exported.

" If that makes you or others feel more noble go for it. As far as that goes, there’s nothing preventing you from giving everything you earn and own to the poor. IMO you seem to be applying the instructions Jesus and Paul gave to us as individual believers and followers of Christ to a secular government that demands payment in the form of taxes in order to redistribute finances from higher to lower levels with no (or at least not enough) balances requiring some effort on the part of the recipients.

 

I disagree with your assertion that, “Jesus nor Paul nor any of the prophets talk about whether people deserve help or not. they simply say that we help them.” Paul makes it very clear that, "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

 

He goes on in Timothy to state that, “If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

 

Why do we want a government that renders fathers worse than unbelievers?

 

Why do we want a government that basically steps up and takes the place of fathers... allowing them to essentially donate their share of biological material and then run off with no strings attached?

 

The fact that my government can imprison me for not paying my "fair share" removes the whole Christian "grace" element from the equation. By rendering unto Caesar (government) what is Caesar's when Caesar is attempting to supplant God in our lives and charitable giving, how are we to have any to give God what is God's?

 

I am for smaller government and lower taxes. Thomas Jefferson was particularly eloquent on the problem of government debt and taxes:

 

'To preserve (the) independence (of the people), we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers.'

 

WOW.

 

Considering that this was a bunch of guys who went to war over a hike in the tax on tea, I’d say the founding fathers never imagined, much less intended a federal tax structure and bloated buracracy like we have today. I’m convinced that by lightening the governmental requirements, you would see charitable “Christian” giving rise exponentially.

 

 

Can you give me the scripture on those quotes . . . not that I am doubting you, but I want to read the context . . .

 

 

As for the great civilizations, trade deficit had a lot to do with the decline. As more and more bullion left the great country to go to other countries for less expensive or more desired goods the weaker the country became. Power was based on wealth. As the free market worked its magic the great countries became weak because they imported much more than they exported.

 

They needed some protectionism, but that would go against the free market and that is bad.

Can you give me the scripture on those quotes . . . not that I am doubting you, but I want to read the context . . .

 

"If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

 

2 Thessalonians 3:10

 

 

“If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

 

1 Timothy 5:8

"If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

 

2 Thessalonians 3:10

 

 

“If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

 

1 Timothy 5:8

Thanks Coach! :thumb:

"If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

 

2 Thessalonians 3:10

 

 

“If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

 

1 Timothy 5:8

Thanks Coach! :thumb:

As for the great civilizations, trade deficit had a lot to do with the decline. As more and more bullion left the great country to go to other countries for less expensive or more desired goods the weaker the country became. Power was based on wealth. As the free market worked its magic the great countries became weak because they imported much more than they exported.

 

They needed some protectionism, but that would go against the free market and that is bad.

 

Ok, we can add the free market to the "great civilizations of the past" foretells our peril argument. :lol:

 

Current Tally

• Big government and welfare led to the demise of great civilizations.
  
• The free market led to the demise of great civilizations.
  
• A lack of a Christian government led to the demise of great civilizations.
  
• Foreign wars and overextended militaries led to the demise of great civilizations.