I guess here is really what bothers me.

 

Some, not all, think that abortion is a sin so they want the government to make it illegal.

 

Some, not all, think that marriage is God given and is between a man and a woman, morally - so they want the government to make homosexual marriages illegal (because it is a sin)

 

But when it comes to economics - "it is MY money" I can better decide what to do with it.

 

It drives me batty that doing what you wish with your money is more important and deserves more freedom than doing what you want with your body, or even more especially what what you want to do with your love.

 

Jesus talks about greed and poverty more than he talks about anything else. To me it is His most important subject. Why then do WE spend so much time regulating sex and love and medical decisions and so little time regulating what we do with money?

 

Greed and unregulated money grabbing has caused more harm to people in this country than gay marriage ever will, but when it comes to legislating morals on money . . . no siree bob, you leave my money alone but by goodness I will certainly tell you whom you can and can't marry. It is just crazy.

 

One of the more thought-provoking posts I've ever read on this site. This has been a very interesting discussion to follow.

To My Dear Brother or Sister FastBreak:

 

A couple of thoughts what do you think

It's Brother... :lol:

 

I cannot think of a better way to sum up what I know my feelings should be on this matter than this teaching from Jesus:

 

Matthew 6:19-34

 

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

 

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life ? "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

 

Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

If we actually believe these words, there are a lot of us that need to change how we do things… myself included.

 

The BIG problem for me. The 500 pound gorilla in the room, is the fact that I sincerely do not believe it is in anyone’s long term best interest to abdicate our responsibility to a larger, more intrusive government. I am accountable to God for my actions (and inactions) regarding giving. Simply handing my money over to the government to do it for me (and quite inefficiently at that) does nothing to lift my responsibility, and does much to burden me further.

I guess here is really what bothers me.

 

Some, not all, think that abortion is a sin so they want the government to make it illegal.

 

Some, not all, think that marriage is God given and is between a man and a woman, morally - so they want the government to make homosexual marriages illegal (because it is a sin)

 

But when it comes to economics - "it is MY money" I can better decide what to do with it.

 

It drives me batty that doing what you wish with your money is more important and deserves more freedom than doing what you want with your body, or even more especially what what you want to do with your love.

 

Jesus talks about greed and poverty more than he talks about anything else. To me it is His most important subject. Why then do WE spend so much time regulating sex and love and medical decisions and so little time regulating what we do with money?

 

Greed and unregulated money grabbing has caused more harm to people in this country than gay marriage ever will, but when it comes to legislating morals on money . . . no siree bob, you leave my money alone but by goodness I will certainly tell you whom you can and can't marry. It is just crazy.

Abortion should be illegal because it is murder. Homosexuality should not be condoned by the state because it is against natural law- what are law should be based on.

 

All Conservatives aren't evil. Just some are.

the economy is booming with the most recent tax cuts . . . lowest job growth in a generation. where is all that investment? It certainly was not in more jobs. People don't put their money back into mortar and bricks anymore, they play with it on the stock market.

 

Again, as I have stated several times, IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT TAXES, it is about changing the system that favors wealth over everything else. And fwiw, even the denominational churches understand that putting money together is more powerful and more can be done than simply with the local church. Local churches cannot provide health/care and insurance to people - can't do it. Local churches are not going to provide inexpensive mass transit at the local level - can't do it. Local churches cannot provide affordable post secondary education for the masses - can't do it. They can feed and clothe those who are needy, but they only change the system throught the government.

Well, if you want to get into a debate of the effects of tax cuts on the economy, we can do that to. But I'm not one to say that low taxes= no recessions. They happen, and it's (arguably) a good thing.

 

You give me a system that allows the government to provide welfare to the poor without high taxation or increased spending and I will jump on board. In fact, FWIW, I'd much prefer Basic Income to Welfare and the Minimum Wage.

 

But you have to understand that, just as you hold your beliefs close to your heart, THE DAY I KNEW I WAS TRULY A CONSERVATIVE WAS THE DAY THAT I CAME TO BELIEVE THAT LOW TAXES AND SMALL GOVERNMENT ARE THE BEST THING FOR THE POOR.

 

A guy named Thomas Wood's (in a very conceited manner) entitled something called Woods's Law:

whenever the private sector introduces an innovation that makes the poor better off than they would have been without it, or that offers benefits or terms that no one else is prepared to offer them, someone — in the name of helping the poor — will call for curbing or abolishing it.

I think it is obvious how Jesus sees greed. Jesus said, “From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:48.

 

But I also think he makes a distinct difference in individuals and the government. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." Matthew 22:21

 

I would almost go along with the premise of our taxes being a form of giving that Jesus commands us to do if this country wasn’t such an UNGODLY country. “And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.” Colossians 3:17. The social programs that are now in existence and those proposed by politicians are not done in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I would suggest you do nothing out of guilt, but out of love.

 

Which brings me back to a point I made earlier in this thread.

 

Being taxed to the point of wealth redistribution does NOTHING to bring a Christian mindset to this country.

 

Because being taxed is not going to be out of love.

 

NOW, absolutely agree with you that Christians should be giving more to their local churches to attack poverty.

I guess here is really what bothers me.

 

Some, not all, think that abortion is a sin so they want the government to make it illegal.

 

Some, not all, think that marriage is God given and is between a man and a woman, morally - so they want the government to make homosexual marriages illegal (because it is a sin)

 

But when it comes to economics - "it is MY money" I can better decide what to do with it.

 

It drives me batty that doing what you wish with your money is more important and deserves more freedom than doing what you want with your body, or even more especially what what you want to do with your love.

 

Jesus talks about greed and poverty more than he talks about anything else. To me it is His most important subject. Why then do WE spend so much time regulating sex and love and medical decisions and so little time regulating what we do with money?

 

Greed and unregulated money grabbing has caused more harm to people in this country than gay marriage ever will, but when it comes to legislating morals on money . . . no siree bob, you leave my money alone but by goodness I will certainly tell you whom you can and can't marry. It is just crazy.

 

What law prevents citizens of this country to not give more in taxes to be redistributed? What law prevents citizens of this country to not give more to charities and churches that are attacking the issue of poverty?

 

I truly agree with you that this is a problem that needs to be addressed but don't feel that raising taxes to distribute to others will solve the problem.

 

Rather I think it will increase the problem based on my experiences.

 

I think government should be more about creation of jobs than redistribution of wealth. I agree that government should be providing more in the terms of mass transit and creation of other programs rather than just handing out money.

 

I think the very KEY of this debate is to create jobs and let people be proud that they are earning their way in their own life rather than give them health care, give them welfare and give them their way of life.

 

That said, there are absolutely groups out there, that CANNOT provide for themselves for true mentally and physical reasons that this society should provide their way of life. But even then, there are probably jobs and programs that they could be in to keep them active and involved instead of sitting home and waiting on a check.

the economy is booming with the most recent tax cuts . . . lowest job growth in a generation. where is all that investment? It certainly was not in more jobs. People don't put their money back into mortar and bricks anymore, they play with it on the stock market.

 

Again, as I have stated several times, IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT TAXES, it is about changing the system that favors wealth over everything else. And fwiw, even the denominational churches understand that putting money together is more powerful and more can be done than simply with the local church. Local churches cannot provide health/care and insurance to people - can't do it. Local churches are not going to provide inexpensive mass transit at the local level - can't do it. Local churches cannot provide affordable post secondary education for the masses - can't do it. They can feed and clothe those who are needy, but they only change the system throught the government.

 

Why????

That is not thinking outside the box that drives me batty with so many of the church leaders of today that are stuck in 50 years ago or even 100 years ago thinking. Open the doors for VBS, Sunday services, Wednesday meals and expect people to flock in.

 

Why couldn't a church pay the salary of a doctor, nurse, etc, etc and open up a doctor's office themselves to provide for medical care in their community?

 

Churches could easily provide scholarships and send care boxes to college students providing them with supplies, snacks, etc that they need.

 

Wasn't Liberty University started by Falwell's church? There are many Christian post-secondary schools throughout the state and country. I went to Berea College that is private and I paid the MOST you can pay for a single year of schooling. That would have been $2,000 a year. EVERY SINGLE STUDENT is on academic scholarship and pays nary a penny in tuition. And they are a private school.

 

My roommate paid NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING AND NOTHING for his 4 years there. In fact, they gave him $200 to buy his books AND a labor position in which he made $2,000 a year. So, he got his college education at a school that US News and World Report ranks as one of the nation's finest, was provided a room and 3 meals a day and made money.

 

Why couldn't a church buy a bus and take people into town each morning and have them not have to pay for gas for their vehicle or if they don't have a vehicle?

 

I see nothing preventing churches from doing that.