I would agree if the employer could see the Cats scores. The problem is no one can see them and the state will tell you that the test cannot be used to judge individual students because they all take a different test. This is why the students cannot be held accountable in any way.

 

I believe the Distinguished rating is listed on the transcripts same as their 4.0 would be listed. In both cases, the assumption as to be made by the employer that the work they did to reach that classification, Distinguished or 4.0, is of high quality.

 

Theoretically, the 4.0 shows they have the knowledge and the Distinguished shows they can use that knowledge at a high level.

As a middle school teacher with the responsiblity of having my 7th grade students produce a portfolio, I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that its a complete and utter waste of time. You spend so much time revising the same pieces over and over that I can't figure out how that is suppose to actually "educate" the students. On the other hand, if I don't put all of the time I can into the portfolio's then I am in the line of fire from the administration, who is under fire from their bosses and so on. What choice does the teacher have? The answer, ZERO!

 

 

(that is if they enjoy being employed)

 

Good comments....I am in the midst of collecting my 7th grade portfolios...now that there are only three pieces our English Teacher is totally bypassing teaching memoir and poem writing to simply get the student reflective and personal narrative complete. I though memoir and poem writing were pretty important concepts....it's all about the kids...or is it all about the CATS scores?

My second grader can just about answer an open-ended question.

 

Meanwhile, I'm having to teach him basic math skills, how to tell time, and plural spelling at home because these are not part of the CATS test.

 

When my second grader comes home with three pages of homework and 15 pages to reading homework four nights a week, it makes me wonder if the entire school day isn't spent on CATS prepping instead of basic skills.

 

You can't teach a team to beat a full court press if they don't know how to dribble and pass first.

ACT is overrated too. You know that Garfield was a President. So what? How does that help you in life. You can graph a point on a 4 quadrant plot? So what? How does that help you in life?

 

All testing is going to have weaknesses.

 

And a HUGE problem with ACT is what you mentioned, it is timed. But many resource students have it in their IEP that testing time is not limited. So by giving them a timed test you are now violating their IEP which is a legal document. Which is going to give there?

 

The proponent of CATS will say that the ACT tests knowledge. CATS test what you can do with that knowledge. As an employer, which would you prefer? The smart person that you have no idea the quality of work they can produce. Or the person you know can produce quality work.

 

As an employer, I'd choose the "smart" person for obvious reasons. At least, I would have an objective, nationally-normed assessment of his knowledge. Often the ACT gets a bad rap when comparing or discussing state testing. And the SAT is mentioned even less. But, what is important to a dean of admissions in considering the application of a high school senior to his college of choice? Granted, there are exceptions allowed for special students, but for the remainder of college-bound students, "What will really get me into a good school?" is still the question. In viewing school applications and granting college scholarships, I am more concerned with the student's nationally-normed test scores, class rank, G.P.A., AP classes taken, extra-curricular and community activities and interviews. The SAT which measures critical thinking skills and the ACT, a more curriculum-based test, are by far the most popular assessment tools used in this process. And both tests now offer an optional writing test. All four-year colleges and universities in the U.S. accept the ACT and some colleges (especially the Big Ten schools) require the writing essay as part of its score. While the ACT is popular in the Midwest, the SAT has been more widely used on the east and west coasts. So, indeed, I am a proponent of these tests and am excitied that our Kentucky high school juniors will be taking the ACT beginning in 2008.

Your last sentence stands in favor of portfolios as students focus on writing correctly and revising and revising until is is proficient.

 

Your 2nd paragraph, the proponents of CATS would argue that CATS does. I would not agree with them since there is no accountability for the students. And in real life, I am accountable for my actions.

 

And you can be successful in life without a college degree.

 

Yes, portfolios are not without their benefit, it is this kind of writing which actually is considered by many to be actual effective communication. However, the writing, and rewriting of a few portfolio pieces is ineffective. I would think more practice in effective writing is necessary, and a portfolio that demonstrates progress towards clearer writing and communication would be necessary. Of course, there are legistic problems with this, but I just think that is what is necessary.

 

Accountability is a huge problem with CATS, simply because whatever incentive one school provides(be it exam exemptions, a party, etc), it can not compare to accountability. Does Ohio still require passing the Proficiency Tests to graduate? (may be dating myself on that one, because I doubt they are still under that name) Some consequence like that, I feel are necessary, but it would be a tough transition.

 

Yes, one can be successful without college. I certainly am not making that claim. However, I was simply stating that CATS is hurting some of Kentucky students' chances for success in the college classroom.

Whatever happened to learning that to "wuzzle" means to mix? Or that a "Yonker" is a young man? Or that a "baloo" is a bear? It's been 20 years and I can still remember all those. But as a kid who graduated in the early 90's as a part of the first open response testing (it was merely a "try out" thing then) I have no idea what I answered or learned when I was asked to describe how I would choreograph a dance depicting the horrors of war.

 

I can sit down with any of these English Professors at our college where I work and they will tell you they have to completely reteach Fundamental Writing to Kentucky kids while the Ohio, and event the West Virginia kids, are light years ahead. One professor who has taught here for 17 years told me he has yet to see a "Distinguished" portfolio piece that would get an "A" in his class.

 

On the bolded, I would hope that it wouldn't.

 

If it did, it would mean that the college professor would have not taught the student a thing.

 

The Distinguished level is for what a kid would be in HS their senior year.

 

Not as a freshmen in college or sophomore or junior or senior.

 

I would hope that the college professor would have something to teach them OVER what they learned in college.

 

I would expect that college professor to teach them something but sounds more like he wants them to come into college at a level they should be at by the end of their year with him so he doesn't have to do anything.:sssh:

High Schools are not for JUST the college kid.

 

There is a large percentage of the HS population that is JUST AS IMPORTANT as them and deserves to have the school also focus on things that they NEED.

 

It seems the discussion of this thread is only concerned about the college-bound kid and not the kid who is 4 or 5 grade levels behind in reading and looking at a factory job their whole life.

 

It is as essential to our society that the HS's educate those kids as it is the college-bound kids.

 

Let's not forget that.

Another reason I am not big on the CATS Test is the way they grade the answers.

The graders are to spend "NO MORE THAN 27 SECONDS' on each response and to boot they are to look for special words that are to be taught to be used in their responses. The graders are not really looking for well thought out answers.

My second grader can just about answer an open-ended question.

 

Meanwhile, I'm having to teach him basic math skills, how to tell time, and plural spelling at home because these are not part of the CATS test.

 

When my second grader comes home with three pages of homework and 15 pages to reading homework four nights a week, it makes me wonder if the entire school day isn't spent on CATS prepping instead of basic skills.

 

You can't teach a team to beat a full court press if they don't know how to dribble and pass first.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A 2nd grader should not have this much work each night. I believe they are teaching the children how to take the test. Home work is fine, however when you also send large packet's of work home to be completed it is overwhelming for the child and the parent.

I believe the Distinguished rating is listed on the transcripts same as their 4.0 would be listed. In both cases, the assumption as to be made by the employer that the work they did to reach that classification, Distinguished or 4.0, is of high quality.

 

Theoretically, the 4.0 shows they have the knowledge and the Distinguished shows they can use that knowledge at a high level.

 

 

 

 

If your transcripts list their CATS scores , it would be the first I have seen. We tried to list them on ours and were told by the state that we could not. If you are correct we need to try again.

High Schools are not for JUST the college kid.

 

There is a large percentage of the HS population that is JUST AS IMPORTANT as them and deserves to have the school also focus on things that they NEED.

 

It seems the discussion of this thread is only concerned about the college-bound kid and not the kid who is 4 or 5 grade levels behind in reading and looking at a factory job their whole life.

 

It is as essential to our society that the HS's educate those kids as it is the college-bound kids.

 

Let's not forget that.

 

As an educator, I am very aware of the strata of Kentucky's high school population. And it is imperative that we prepare each and every one of them to be productive citizens and successful human beings. My concern is no less for the vo-tech student than the college-bound, honor student. I am just saying that our young people in Kentucky be given every opportunity to advance their education and life preparation, no matter their capacity to learn or socio-economic status, by being offered the best and precise advice possible for them to make correct choices. Since this thread was discussing earlier the short-comings of college entrance exams, I was commenting on the value of the SAT and ACT as the greater assessment tools for college-bound students.

My second grader can just about answer an open-ended question.

 

Meanwhile, I'm having to teach him basic math skills, how to tell time, and plural spelling at home because these are not part of the CATS test.

 

When my second grader comes home with three pages of homework and 15 pages to reading homework four nights a week, it makes me wonder if the entire school day isn't spent on CATS prepping instead of basic skills.

 

You can't teach a team to beat a full court press if they don't know how to dribble and pass first.

 

AMEN!!!!!:thumb:

Another reason I am not big on the CATS Test is the way they grade the answers.

The graders are to spend "NO MORE THAN 27 SECONDS' on each response and to boot they are to look for special words that are to be taught to be used in their responses. The graders are not really looking for well thought out answers.

 

I agree, plus it's way to subjective. We had a student that we gave a distinguished on their portfolio. They didn't agree and knocked it down to a novice. We questioned this and resubmitted it to the state to rescore. After 7 different scorers (trained by the state department) they decided it was a proficient. (2 scorers gave it a novice, 2 a distinguished, 1 proficient and 2 apprentice). If the rubrics and guidelines are so exact, how would this happen. This is what I questioned with the assessment department of KDE, but they just give you the run around if you ask questions like this. :creepy:

As an educator, I am very aware of the strata of Kentucky's high school population. And it is imperative that we prepare each and every one of them to be productive citizens and successful human beings. My concern is no less for the vo-tech student than the college-bound, honor student. I am just saying that our young people in Kentucky be given every opportunity to advance their education and life preparation, no matter their capacity to learn or socio-economic status, by being offered the best and precise advice possible for them to make correct choices. Since this thread was discussing earlier the short-comings of college entrance exams, I was commenting on the value of the SAT and ACT as the greater assessment tools for college-bound students.

 

:thumb:

Why do teachers take issue with CATS but their association - KEA consistently fights changes to it? When will teachers stand up to their own organization and say enough and stop. KEA is against Senate Bill 1. Virtually all teachers who speak out are for Senate Bill 1. Go figure.