Do me a favor and tie your cliches, as right as they are, to this discussion.

:lol: Nice dodge.

:lol: Nice dodge.

 

Brother how I dodging anything? I've been asking the same question for 2 pages now and no one has answered. All I get are cliches.

Brother how I dodging anything? I've been asking the same question for 2 pages now and no one has answered. All I get are cliches.

And this isn't a cliché?

 

Do we just talk the talk about freedoms or do we actually walk the walk, too? I see a lot of talking and not much walking going on here.

 

 

Maybe if you'd be a little more clear, you'd get an answer. What exactly is it you want to know?

I have multiple points on the issue of the American flag.

 

First, let me say that if my house were to catch fire today, the ONE material possession that I would make with me is the flag that my father gave me from his service in Vietnam. He served two tours during Vietman, as a sergeant in the army. Thank you, dad, and the many others who serve or have served our country to protect our freedoms.

 

I am not angry with those who choose not to fly the flag. I am angry with those that jump on the "fly the flag" bandwagon and then don't ever look at it. They allow it to get faded and fall apart. That is part of the flag code, too, but I don't here public outcry over that or vigilantes on their doorsteps. There is a nice house on my road that, over the course of a couple of months, had a flag that lost all of its stripes on the right hand side and was pretty much just the field of stars. I literally got sick each time that I drove past it. I finally bought a new flag and put it in their mailbox one night. Yes, they flew it until it faded and became ribbons and the parts blew away.

 

We do not teach flag etiquette or the flag code in school. I am a teacher. It isn't in any of the core content, so it just doesn't get taught. I legally cannot require a kid to say the pledge (I wouldn't want to "force" them, anyway), but I can make them be quiet and show respect. I have a photo of my dad in his army uniform over my flag with a caption that says "My reason for saying the pledge". That has opened up a lot of discussion with several of my students and we have talked about flag etiquette/code on multiple occassions. It is often the five minutes between classes that some of the most important lessons get taught. I should add that when my 65 year old father came in my classroom and saw his photo and the caption, he cried.

 

I love America and I love being an American. What bothers me is that we can sit here and say, "Let them come legally." The process is lengthy and you have to HAVE MONEY in order to do so. So, if you are seeking a better life, then you cannot come legally. Maybe it is just the area in which I live or just the areas in which I visit, but I don't see many illegal immigrants that do not work. As a matter of fact, most of them work 7 days a week for minimal pay. Why can't we help them become citizens? I know...they need to do so legally...so they move back to Mexico where they can barely make enough money to feed and cloth themselves and their family...and save up the thousands of dollars necessary to begin the process.

 

IMO, it is un-Christian and un-American to talk out of both sides of our mouth. Yes, they can come, we welcome them legally, but have a system that is set up so that "the poor, the tired, the huddled masses" cannot do so. Most won't admit it, but the truth is "we" don't want them here at all, legal or otherwise. And "we" most certainly don't want them if they are poor.

 

Dad and I have had lengthy discussions about these matters. He supports those people that choose not to say the pledge of allegience. He supports those that do not fly American flags. Those are freedoms our country offers. He told me that he served our country before, during and after Vietnam, for the freedom for his children...the freedom to think differently, to believe differently, to do whatever we wanted and not have to be forced into anything. So here - I believe that we need to help those that are less fortunate, whoever they may be. Help does not have to be handouts, but helping them establish themselves to be more successful. This is my motto both as a teacher and as a person.

 

TTC - I'm guessing the veterans in my family who have served during a war would say what most say "I fight to protect the freedoms at home." Don't those freedoms include expression? Don't laws usually come about in order to fix a problem or situation? All I'm asking is why have a law over a beautiful symbol of freedom? I think if you take a step back and think about the answer to the question you told me to ask, you'd realize that having a law goes against the answer you and I get from our soldiers.

 

CCH5432 - The US flag, unlike most other country's flags, is a beautiful symbol of freedom. Are you saying we should require legal non-citizens to fly the US flag? Are you saying citizens should be legally bound to fly the flag?

 

I love the flag and what it stands for. I love it so much I could never force anyone to fly it in any situation should they not want to. It would actually be a disgrace to the flag itself and to the men and women who have fought for it. That would be 100% opposite of why I love it and why the soldiers fought for me.

 

You will agree with me that "freedom" policies of other countries around the world have little bearing on how we operate, correct?

 

To me, flying it on top is a sign of respect. However, IMO you can't legislate respect.

 

If a US citizen stands in the public square crying out "I love Mexico more than I love America" we're not going to arrest him or her. If he holds a sign that says "The US sucks!" we're not going to arrest him . If he flies the flag upside down, we're not going to arrest him.

 

Why is that the case but we would arrest someone who flies another country's flag above ours? There's no consistency in the message.

 

I don't think anyone would argue with what you say folks SHOULD do. That still doesn't answer the question of legality/legislation and inconsistency.

 

What does any of the above have to do with legality issues regarding the flag?

 

We'd all love for everyone to love America and fly a flag high and proudly every day as a sign of love for the country and respect for it and its soldiers.

 

We made a decisionn a long time ago as a country to allow people to express themselves even if its taken in a negative light. So, why charge someone with a crime in this particular case?

 

As I said previously, I understand the extreme passion behind this situation.

 

However, as I've also said, we seem to be wanting to disregard the rights of anyone who doesn't "fall in line" or do what we consider to be respectful. We all wish for utopia and wish people would show respect to the flag and not show dissent in any form or fashion. However, out of the other side of our mouth we love to talk about our great country and the freedoms that come with it.

 

If you can't handle the minority view then IMO don't be talking about the country's freedoms.

 

Did you somehow miss these, RTS?

Dad and I have had lengthy discussions about these matters. He supports those people that choose not to say the pledge of allegience. He supports those that do not fly American flags. Those are freedoms our country offers. He told me that he served our country before, during and after Vietnam, for the freedom for his children...the freedom to think differently, to believe differently, to do whatever we wanted and not have to be forced into anything. So here - I believe that we need to help those that are less fortunate, whoever they may be. Help does not have to be handouts, but helping them establish themselves to be more successful. This is my motto both as a teacher and as a person.

 

I KNEW there was at least one voice of reason in BGP land.

Did you somehow miss these, RTS?

I saw them and still ask, what's your point?

 

It's isn't legal and it isn't patriotic, so what exactly is your point? If you want to be an American, what's the point of flying your old countries flag? I don't have an Irish or German flag in my yard. What flag do you fly? If you want to come here to live, are you not wanting to be an American?

I KNEW there was at least one voice of reason in BGP land.

Why, because they said what you want to hear?

I saw them and still ask, what's your point?

 

It's isn't legal and it isn't patriotic, so what exactly is your point?

 

Only for you will I break this down AGAIN:

 

Where is the consistency in the message of the US that we all espouse when we make laws that say you MUST fly the flag above others? If I can say our country stinks and we're oppressors and we're evil and ..... why do I then not have the right to fly my flag a certain way? I can say we suck and not get arrested but I can't fly another country's flag higher than the US?

 

Surely, you can understand that the message is inconsistent, right?

Why, because they said what you want to hear?

 

Yes.

Only for you will I break this down AGAIN:

 

Where is the consistency in the message of the US that we all espouse when we make laws that say you MUST fly the flag above others? If I can say our country stinks and we're oppressors and we're evil and ..... why do I then not have the right to fly my flag a certain way? I can say we suck and not get arrested but I can't fly another country's flag higher than the US?

 

Surely, you can understand that the message is inconsistent, right?

 

Any ignorant person can say what they want about a country or it's goverment. But our flag should be flying above anyones in America. After all this is America, and members of my family and members of your family faught to keep that flag flying high.

 

If that flag wasn't flying high their are good chances we aren't on BGP right now and very good chances America is not such a diverse country. Meaning all the immigrants who enjoy the benefit of even coming to America probably wouldn't even be here.

Any ignorant person can say what they want about a country or it's goverment. But our flag should be flying above anyones in America. After all this is America, and members of my family and members of your family faught to keep that flag flying high.

 

If that flag wasn't flying high their are good chances we aren't on BGP right now and very good chances America is not such a diverse country. Meaning all the immigrants who enjoy the benefit of even coming to America probably wouldn't even be here.

 

I can't make it any simpler so I guess I should just quit trying.

 

I'm not talking "should."

I actually know a TON of people who ridiculously say we may have a civil war with them some day. I agree it sounds ridculous. But there are several conspirators out there who say they are slowly trying to take over terrorites by bringing tons of immigrants into certain spots in the US... primarily the West and SW trying to build up their own communties.

 

They should not come here and immediately try to segregate themselves from us. If they are going to do that why even come? I don't know where things are headed but in the next 25 years it should be interesting. Hopefully, all for the best.

:thumb:There is nothing ridiculous to suggest that unfettered illegal immigration might result in a civil war in the future.

 

Suppose one or more states in the Southwest decide to issue drivers' licenses without requiring proof of citizenship. Is it really far fetched that a state with a large population of Hispanic Americans and an even larger population of illegal immigrants might vote to secede? How would the federal government of the future respond to such a move?

 

Civil War in this country is not unprecedented and it is very short sighted to presume that it could never happen again. I don't think that any of us can foresee what kind of country this will be in 50 years because the decisions that our elected politicians will be making in the coming months will have profound impacts on our future.

I can't make it any simpler so I guess I should just quit trying.

 

I'm not talking "should."

 

Sure you are.

There's no way that you believe that this incident is the first step in this guy claiming US territory as his own. No way.

I never said that the individual shop owner was claiming US territory as his own. I was just explaining the symbolism of planting a foreign flag on another country's land. Flying the flag of Mexico above the US flag is the equivalent of claiming territory. A recent example of using a flag to stake a claim is the Russian's decision to plant a flag on the bottom of the Arctic Ocean to claim the potentially rich oil deposits that lie underneath.

 

Secondly, do we know this business owner is an illegal immigrant or are we simply assuming he is?

It's irrelevant to the discussion. If the owner hung the flags out of ignorance and he is here legally, then hopefully he will educate himself on the subject and not repeat the mistake. Hopefully, if the owner elects to repeat the "mistake," then he will be charged for breaking the law. If further investigation indicates that the owner is in this country illegally, then he should be deported.