The other thread had been hi-jacked, by me unfortunately so I moved off.

 

Just so I can be clear - hear is my ever emerging theology:

 

Christ is the way for people to get to heaven -

 

People searching for God and trying to do the right thing can find God, even if they have never heard of Jesus Christ - Christ's sacrifice/obedience/service/GRACE is sufficient for ALL even those who will never hear his name or the Gospel.

 

Thomas Merton says that the search for God is pleasing to God, and I cannot accept that someone who does something pleasing to God will go to hell, simply b/c they have not heard someone preach the Bible.

 

I believe that there are those who will reject Christ in this life, but just like the parable of the Waiting Father (prodigal son) Jesus/God will always be ready to accept them, when they are finally compelled through the love of God to turn toward God. Prior to that turning they will have an existence of absence from everything that we associate with God - primarily Faith, Hope, and Love.

 

I think that there are those among us who are close to God/Jesus and don't know that they are. Tony Campolo tells a great story of just such a person in his most recent book.

 

I think God's love is about inclusion, not exclusion and the more conditions we put on getting to heaven the more exclusionary we become and the less like God.

 

I think we spread the Gospel so that people can have Life now and have it more abundantly. The Gospel is not about the way to keep from going to hell, it is about developing a relationship with Christ so that you can live this life in the purpose for which you were designed.

 

I think there are those who would say that they are not saved, and yet they live a life very pleasing to God, and that has to be pleasing to God - does it not? I think they live the Gospel of Matthew 25 - exactly as it is written and in so doing I think that Jesus may find them, even if they don't find Jesus.

 

The more people that experience an ongoing relationship with Jesus, the closer we come to bringing Jesus' Kingdom on earth - Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be Done ON EARTH.

 

I think Salvation is much more about this life than it is about the next one. Study hard the teachings of John and see if he is not in that same boat.

First you have good ideas and right on some things, salvation is more than life in Heaven, its about living a life for Christ here.

But the Bible says that he is the vine and we are the branch and teaches us that unless we do accept them we shall not see God.

And good deads are great, but the word says man is not saved by works alone. Works are great but I believe that no matter how good you are unless you confess him as your saviour, your not going to make it to Heave, blunt I know but true.

As for preaching the gospel and people never hearing it. According to the scriptures every man will hear the gospel and feel the drawing of the Lord atleast once in their life. With missionaries and tv across the world that is now possible.

That is kind of my theology, doesn't make mine right or yours wrong, just sharing mine.

Under your theology, everybody goes to Heaven. Then Christ's death on the cross was meaningless. If God is "inclusionary," as you say, then why did Jesus need to die?

 

What was the point of his discussion on the cross with two thieves?

 

Why seek for God at all? Since He is going to find you and take you regardless of what you do, why do you need to seek Him? Put conversly, do you believe there is a Hell, and if so, who goes there?

 

What evidence do you have that God is inclusionary? What evidence do you have that He is merciful? Where does it say anywhere that He is fair?

 

In terms of "living a life pleasing to God," what do you believe that you can possibly do that is good enough to earn your way into Heaven?

 

The formula for salvation is incredibly simple: Confess + Ask = Receive. It requires only two "conditions" as you call them. Your theology would eliminate the conditions altogether? Reduce it to one? What?

 

Perhaps I sound condescending, and if so, I apologize. However, you put your "emerging theology" on the board, and it seems you genuinely are thinking about this, therefore I pose these questions to you to challenge that theology. My goal is to hopefully remove all of the human logic that you are trying to apply to this and to see that God's grace is both illogical and amazingly simple.

Both of the above posts make assumptions about my theology that simply are not true.

 

I don't believe in a physical place called hell - I do believe in separation from God - which is what sin does.

 

I seek God b/c that is what I am designed to do and so that I 'can have Life and have it more abundantly' and so that others can see God through me and so that I can do God's work on earth (hands and feet), and so that I can live in a loving relationship to him. Not b/c it will save me from going to hell. I hope that my kids obey me b/c they love me and not b/c they are simply afraid of my punishment.

 

I didn't say God would find you regardless of what you can do, I said God could find you even if you have never heard the Gospel - Thomas Merton, the great modern theologian is the one who talks about the search for God being pleasing to God.

 

All of Jesus words point toward enlarging the Kingdom. It was the pharisees and the saducees who talked about rules . . . Matthew 18:14 (parable of the lost sheep) In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

 

On the one hand you say that I can't do anything to 'earn' my way to heaven, then on the other hand you say that have to Confess and Ask. Are those not ways of earning? Which is it? Besides, your equation flies in the face of John 3:16 which says "whosover believes." Matthew 25 does not even talk about believing at all, but talks about the treatment of others. Jesus greatest commandment says to love God and Love other, nothing about confessing and asking.

 

There is an entire parable about the 'merciful servant'. God is absolutely not fair HIS grace falls down on everyone, the deserving and undeserving alike (oh wait, we are all underserving). In Matthew 20 God even asks (20:15) Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own (grace)? Or are you envious because I am generous?"

 

Belfry boy, so you actually believe that there were people living in Africa before Jesus was born who heard the GOSPEL?? There was not even a Gospel then. What about the Babylonians? The Mongols, the Huns, the Qing dynasty?

 

TV does not make it to the Congo and there are plenty of people living now who will never hear the Gospel from a missionary. How do you suppose they come to know God - either of you?

Matthew 7:13, 14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

Romans 9:15, 18 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

The words of Jesus himself says that few will find the way to life and many will go down the path of destruction.

 

Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus would strongly suggest that there is a very real place of torment.

On the one hand you say that I can't do anything to 'earn' my way to heaven, then on the other hand you say that have to Confess and Ask. Are those not ways of earning? Which is it? Besides, your equation flies in the face of John 3:16 which says "whosover believes."

I realize that the overwhelming depth of sin for some of us may be greater than for others, but what "labor" goes into simply confessing that I am a sinner? Likewise for "asking" that God cleanse my heart and redeem me as His own. By this logic, the panhandler on the street does an equal day's work to the construction worker or a farmer. I don't classify "confessing and asking" in the same category as "labor and work" thereby "earning". The Bible is absolutely clear that there is absolutely nothing any of us can do to "earn" our salvation.

 

Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

 

According to Paul, our good works are a result-or a fruit of-our salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

This is not to say that those who do not know or accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are incapable of good works. but merely that good works apart from a relationship with Jesus Christ are merely that... good works. They cannot, in and of themselves "save" anyone.

 

As far as your reference to John 3:16, suggesting that belief alone is enough, I am reminded of several verses inditicating that demons also believe, and yet there is nothing in scripture that would indicate that they will be in Heaven too.

 

James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder."

 

Mr 1:34 - "and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was."

 

Luke 4:41 - "Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ."

 

I'm not telling you what to believe, but I find it reckless, and possibly even dangerous to get too far off on our own in designing a theology to fit our needs.

I realize that the overwhelming depth of sin for some of us may be greater than for others, but what "labor" goes into simply confessing that I am a sinner? Likewise for "asking" that God cleanse my heart and redeem me as His own. By this logic, the panhandler on the street does an equal day's work to the construction worker or a farmer. I don't classify "confessing and asking" in the same category as "labor and work" thereby "earning". The Bible is absolutely clear that there is absolutely nothing any of us can do to "earn" our salvation.

 

Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

 

According to Paul, our good works are a result-or a fruit of-our salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

This is not to say that those who do not know or accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are incapable of good works. but merely that good works apart from a relationship with Jesus Christ are merely that... good works. They cannot, in and of themselves "save" anyone.

 

As far as your reference to John 3:16, suggesting that belief alone is enough, I am reminded of several verses inditicating that demons also believe, and yet there is nothing in scripture that would indicate that they will be in Heaven too.

 

James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder."

 

Mr 1:34 - "and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was."

 

Luke 4:41 - "Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ."

 

I'm not telling you what to believe, but I find it reckless, and possibly even dangerous to get too far off on our own in designing a theology to fit our needs.

 

You dismiss my reading of the scripture and say that my theology is reckless, yet your reading is right on - why can't I simply say that you designing your theology to meet your needs is wrong.

 

How do you just dismiss John 3:16 - the Verse that almost everyone knows?

 

As to good works being simply that . . . Jesus also says that good fruit cannot come from a bad tree, nor bad fruit come from a good tree. Was Jesus wrong? I am not talking about good works 'saving' anybody, it is not about "saving" at all, it is about drawing closer to God. You say that word like it is a one time event and it is over. I would say that it is a life-long process.

 

Any response to Matthew 25?, or the Parable of the Lost Sheep?

You dismiss my reading of the scripture and say that my theology is reckless, yet your reading is right on - why can't I simply say that you designing your theology to meet your needs is wrong.

 

How do you just dismiss John 3:16 - the Verse that almost everyone knows?

 

As to good works being simply that . . . Jesus also says that good fruit cannot come from a bad tree, nor bad fruit come from a good tree. Was Jesus wrong? I am not talking about good works 'saving' anybody, it is not about "saving" at all, it is about drawing closer to God. You say that word like it is a one time event and it is over. I would say that it is a life-long process.

 

Any response to Matthew 25?, or the Parable of the Lost Sheep?

I will give it a shot, and again man Im not saying who is right and who is wrong just my opinion so please no hard feelings.

Right after 3:16 you have 3:17. For God did not come into this world to condem the world but the THROUGH HIM the world might be saved. See in my opinion God dont want people to perish and go to Hell, but sad reality is people are going to IMO unless they go through him. And I agree with what you are saying about works, but it takes faith to, Faith without works is dead.

As far as the Lost Sheep I will take a stab, I mean to put it simply it is God's mercy, and its like anything else when God looses one of his children he is like any parent, he would be frantic until it returns home. But its like the Parable of the lost son. The father is devistated when his son is gone, and he was always welcome home, but it took the son to realize that you know what I need to go back home and when he did he restored him.

I believe that is the way it is God is openly having his arms out waiting for the "Lost Sheep" to come home but it still takes their decision, and in order to do that it must go through the blood. Because what was the purpose of God sending his only begotten son to this earth, to die and shed his blood and defeat death hell and the grave, so that we can have eternal life. I believe Gods mercy is so amazing, I have stumbled sometimes so bad but I have found God there to pick me up, but I believe it all has to go through the blood of Jesus Christ.

That probably didnt make much sense, but I know what Im trying to say I just hope I said it were everyone else gets what Im trying to say lol.

Lots of stuff I want to respond to but I have a brief to write. I'll get to it as soon as I am able.

I’m going to try to tackle this in bite sized chunks. :thumb:

 

You dismiss my reading of the scripture and say that my theology is reckless, yet your reading is right on - why can't I simply say that you designing your theology to meet your needs is wrong.

In no way did I intend to dismiss your reading of the scripture, nor intend to say I am right and you are wrong. I was speaking to the recklessness of pulling verses we like, and ignoring those we don't and building a theology based upon excerpts.

 

You can say what you want about “my theology”, but I assure you it is not built upon what I find comfortable. I've changed greatly as I have drawn nearer to God... including many of my previous beliefs. I've gotten to the point that if it is not in the Bible, or in line with what the Bible teaches, I don't want it in me. I’m a long way from where I’d like to be, but simply put, “my theology” is the Bible… nothing more, nothing less.

 

For me to state this and actually mean it means that I need to understand what it is the Bible accurately says... not what I think it "should" say.

How do you just dismiss John 3:16 - the Verse that almost everyone knows?

I am not, cannot, nor will not dismiss John 3:16, but I do think that the Greek word translated "believe" here has a much deeper meaning than the casual understanding of the word as we use it today.

 

If we look at the words of Jesus in John 16:15-18 we get a glimpse of His standards of belief... He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

 

Combine this with the verses I quoted earlier about demons also "believing" and I think it's fair to say that merely recognizing the fact that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, the Creator of all that is, is significantly different from the description provided by John Gill, a remarkable theologian who preached in the same church as C. H. Spurgeon over one hundred years earlier. Among his many works was his magnum opus, “An Exposition of the New Testament” published in three volumes between 1746-1748. In describing the “belief” described in John 3:15-16 he wrote the following:

 

That whosoever believeth in him…

Whether Jew or Gentile, a greater, or a lesser sinner, and of whatsoever state and condition, age or sex; and though ever so weak a believer, provided his faith, is of the right kind: not an historical or temporary one, a mere assent to the truth of things respecting his person, office, and work; but such a faith, by which a soul sees a glory, fullness, and suitableness in him as a Savior; goes to him, ventures on him, commits itself to him, lays hold on him, and receives him, leans and relies upon him, and trusts in him, and lives upon him; and which is the faith of God's elect; a gift of his grace, and the operation of his Spirit; and which works by love, and is attended with the fruits of righteousness.

 

It is clear from this reading that merely believing that Jesus is who He says He is, is substantially different from believing in Him enough to commit one’s life to Him as Lord and Savior. It is one thing to believe something, it’s entirely another thing to believe in it enough to act upon that belief. John is referring to the deepest, most committed level of belief.

John 14:6...Study some more. I like your spirit Ace. Why did God destroy the two cities in Genesis for the sins of man?

I’m going to try to tackle this in bite sized chunks. :thumb:

 

In no way did I intend to dismiss your reading of the scripture, nor intend to say I am right and you are wrong. I was speaking to the recklessness of pulling verses we like, and ignoring those we don't and building a theology based upon excerpts.

 

You can say what you want about “my theology”, but I assure you it is not built upon what I find comfortable. I've changed greatly as I have drawn nearer to God... including many of my previous beliefs. I've gotten to the point that if it is not in the Bible, or in line with what the Bible teaches, I don't want it in me. I’m a long way from where I’d like to be, but simply put, “my theology” is the Bible… nothing more, nothing less.

 

For me to state this and actually mean it means that I need to understand what it is the Bible accurately says... not what I think it "should" say.

 

Nor am I pulling out verses that I "like" and ignoring others. However, when you say if it is not in the Bible you don't want it in you, are there things in the Bible that you don't want in you. Isn't easier to say that that I have to confess and ask forgiveness and I will go to heaven than it is to say there are those who will never hear the word of God but might have a chance to go to heaven, based on scripture? Still no response to Matthew 25? You either have to completely dismiss that chapter, or you have to do some real strong interpretation or make some assumptions that simply are not in there.

 

If you throw out logic, as was suggested in another post, and you throw out reasoning, how do you understand what the Bible accurate says? Besides that, why would God give us the power of logic and reasoning if we were not supposed to use it?

 

I make no judgment on your theology, but you certainly did on mine.

 

My father-in-law, a baptist minister and former professor of Preaching and hermenuetics (sp) at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville described theology in this way (paraphrased): I use my experience, common sense, logic and reasoning to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in my reading and understanding of the scripture to form a belief about the role of God and Jesus in my life.

 

Mine too has changed dramatically over the years. I grew up in a fundamentalist baptist church in SouthEastern Kentucky that was all about condemnation and ways to stay out of hell. I have come now to believe that Christianity is about love and showing God's grace to those around me.

I'm going to try to go through these one at a time just to give my opinion clearly. There are only a couple of points you make that I have a real disagreement with. After that, I like a lot of what you say. I just wanted to make that clear, so you don't take this as an attack on your theology. I don't want to come off that way at all...I enjoy these discussions because it makes me think and read and study scripture. I learn from that and from people's ideas. My hope is that it's that way for everyone.

 

The other thread had been hi-jacked, by me unfortunately so I moved off.

 

Just so I can be clear - hear is my ever emerging theology:

 

Christ is the way for people to get to heaven -

 

This I agree with.

 

People searching for God and trying to do the right thing can find God, even if they have never heard of Jesus Christ - Christ's sacrifice/obedience/service/GRACE is sufficient for ALL even those who will never hear his name or the Gospel.

 

Thomas Merton says that the search for God is pleasing to God, and I cannot accept that someone who does something pleasing to God will go to hell, simply b/c they have not heard someone preach the Bible.

 

This is something that I'm not sure of. First, I absolutely think that people who have heard the gospel of Christ will be held accountable to whether they accepted Him or rejected Him. There is no in between. As for people who have never heard the gospel, I don't know. As I said before, I'd like to think there is a way for them, whether that be God revealing the truth to them or them following that inner conscience (which would be from God) or whatever. But, I have no scripture one way or the other for that, so I can't say either way. All I know is that for me personally, I know about the gospel of Christ, so I will be held to that standard.

 

I believe that there are those who will reject Christ in this life, but just like the parable of the Waiting Father (prodigal son) Jesus/God will always be ready to accept them, when they are finally compelled through the love of God to turn toward God. Prior to that turning they will have an existence of absence from everything that we associate with God - primarily Faith, Hope, and Love.

 

I completely disagree with this one. This is our chance to choose and accept or reject God's plan of salvation. This life is it.

 

Hebrews 9:27, 28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

I think that there are those among us who are close to God/Jesus and don't know that they are. Tony Campolo tells a great story of just such a person in his most recent book.

 

Again, can't say one way or another on this since I don't have any scripture for it. I wouldn't completely rule it out, but I wouldn't bank on it either. It doesn't apply to me and my immediate surroundings because I, and most people I know, are aware of Jesus.

 

I think God's love is about inclusion, not exclusion and the more conditions we put on getting to heaven the more exclusionary we become and the less like God.

 

The only conditions I put on getting to heaven is accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of your life. That's about as simple as it gets in my book. I'm not sure what conditions you're talking about.

 

I think we spread the Gospel so that people can have Life now and have it more abundantly. The Gospel is not about the way to keep from going to hell, it is about developing a relationship with Christ so that you can live this life in the purpose for which you were designed.

 

I think the gospel does allow us to have life now and have it more abundantly. I also think it's about having a relationship with Christ and living a fulfilling, purposeful life. It's also about the future promise and hope of heaven. A better place than this. But, the fact is, it's also about saving us from an eternity in hell. I certainly don't think that should be our focal point, but it is a fact and people should be aware of it. People should also be aware that hell is only a temporary holding place for the unsaved. Their ultimate destination is the lake of fire. People often use hell in a manner that implies it is the same as the lake of fire, but the Bible makes a distinction between them.

 

I think there are those who would say that they are not saved, and yet they live a life very pleasing to God, and that has to be pleasing to God - does it not? I think they live the Gospel of Matthew 25 - exactly as it is written and in so doing I think that Jesus may find them, even if they don't find Jesus.

 

If a person is aware of the gospel and says they aren't saved, then I have to believe they aren't saved.

 

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

That verse tells me that they aren't living a life pleasing to God if they don't have faith in Him.

 

As for Matthew 25, it's a chapter of parables. One parable, in and of itself, does not completely describe the kingdom of heaven and I wouldn't use that chapter to discount the countless verses that state that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. I think it's important to interpret scripture in light of other scripture. To interpret Matthew 25 in a way that discounts that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation contradicts a lot of other scripture.

 

The more people that experience an ongoing relationship with Jesus, the closer we come to bringing Jesus' Kingdom on earth - Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be Done ON EARTH.

 

I think Salvation is much more about this life than it is about the next one. Study hard the teachings of John and see if he is not in that same boat.

 

Salvation is very much about eternity, IMO. I'm not discounting it's importance to this life, but the ultimate fulfillment and promise is in the future. That hope and expectation of a future in heaven, a future dwelling in the very presence of God, should be a huge influence in our life. We should be preparing ourselves for eternity by living for Christ now.

This is a very interesting topic. Everyone has their own take on religion. I think you are right living a good an pleasing life is a very important aspect of religion. I think a lot of people forget that the Bible does say you can't get to heaven on works alone. Living a good and pleasing life is also the last( but very important) part of being a Christian. God tells many things we need to do to become part of his kingdom: 1. Hear the word of God. 2. Believe the word. 3. Confess that you are a sinner. 4. Repent publicly of your sins. 5. Be Baptized( this is the step that a lot of people and religions fail at in their lives. In Acts 2:38 it says to repent and be baptized, also John 3:5 tells you can't enter the kingdom unless you have been born of the water and the spirit. The word baptize derives from the greek word baptizmo which means to emerse. This is where I personally think some religion fail with the use of sprinkling.) 6. Which is the last and very important step is to live a christian and good and pleasing life for God. This is justmy take on religion and how I feel about the obedience of God.