People...I really enjoy reading your comments. Ace, thanks for your comeback. I'll try not to be so...oh whats the word I want. Well, I just read more than comment.

 

One key word to remember for everyone is "Interpretation".

 

 

I would hope that you would continue to contribute. The more ideas that are out here the better for all. Including me. I am certainly not above having my ideas moved.

Question on the sin issue. Ace, you say we should not preach on sin or at lessen it to the point we hardly address it. Is that fair?

 

If so, as I drove to work this morning, listening to Casting Crowns I had a thought, if sin is not a big issue in this and sin leading us to be forsaken by God, why did Jesus say on the cross, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?"

Question on the sin issue. Ace, you say we should not preach on sin or at lessen it to the point we hardly address it. Is that fair?

 

If so, as I drove to work this morning, listening to Casting Crowns I had a thought, if sin is not a big issue in this and sin leading us to be forsaken by God, why did Jesus say on the cross, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?"

 

i never said not to address it, but why do we need to point out what people are doing wrong, the Bible even warns against it. At my church we preach God's love, we preach how to be good disciples, how to live a life pleasing to God - the things that we SHOULD DO. I feel more guilty for my sins of omission, not doing a better job of helping the oppressed, than I do about my personal sin, b/c I know I have a relationship with God and his expectation is that I will help others.

 

Besides, what is a sin to someone may not be a sin to another . . . yeah, for real.

 

For you, the big sin is Abortion (I am not conviced it is a sin, I assume God will work with those individuals as he needs to) - For others it is homosexuality (not sure Paul or Moses had all of the science facts - even Al Mohler - president of southern baptist seminary - believes it is genetic now - does God create people to sin?) If it is genetic, and if it is a genetic Malady (not my belief necessarily) then is it also a sin to have CF or MDS?

 

Some churches preach about the evil sin of Drinking Alcohol. And for some this may be a sin, but it is not biblical. Moderation is Biblical. Some preach on the sin of dancing, that is not biblical.

 

Again, when asked what are the most important rules to follow, Jesus said

 

LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR - ALL OTHER COMMANDS HANG ON THESE THINGS - should that not then be the message? Would not sin begin to disappear as people began to love God and each other more and as a result refrained from doing things that hurt the relationship? Things that they knew IN THEIR HEART to be damaging.

 

With the woman at the well Jesus gave her water - accepted her - and then told her to go sin no more, but he didn't beat the sin to death, he offered her an alternative to it. He saved the other woman from stoning and told those getting ready to do it that if they were without sin to cast the first stone.

 

My friend, who attends Southeast in Louisville, says that they would not accept a homosexual as being saved unless that homosexual denounced that lifestyle. How does he or anyone else know the heart of an individual and get to decide who is or is not saved? He also owns a porsche, a very large house, and has more than he needs, but no one has ever asked him to denounce his way of life - nor would I, b/c I don't claim to know his heart, but on the surface it appears to fly in face of the teachings of Jesus.

i never said not to address it, but why do we need to point out what people are doing wrong, the Bible even warns against it. At my church we preach God's love, we preach how to be good disciples, how to live a life pleasing to God - the things that we SHOULD DO. I feel more guilty for my sins of omission, not doing a better job of helping the oppressed, than I do about my personal sin, b/c I know I have a relationship with God and his expectation is that I will help others.

 

Besides, what is a sin to someone may not be a sin to another . . . yeah, for real.

 

For you, the big sin is Abortion (I am not conviced it is a sin, I assume God will work with those individuals as he needs to) - For others it is homosexuality (not sure Paul or Moses had all of the science facts - even Al Mohler - president of southern baptist seminary - believes it is genetic now - does God create people to sin?) If it is genetic, and if it is a genetic Malady (not my belief necessarily) then is it also a sin to have CF or MDS?

 

Some churches preach about the evil sin of Drinking Alcohol. And for some this may be a sin, but it is not biblical. Moderation is Biblical. Some preach on the sin of dancing, that is not biblical.

 

Again, when asked what are the most important rules to follow, Jesus said

 

LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR - ALL OTHER COMMANDS HANG ON THESE THINGS - should that not then be the message? Would not sin begin to disappear as people began to love God and each other more and as a result refrained from doing things that hurt the relationship? Things that they knew IN THEIR HEART to be damaging.

 

With the woman at the well Jesus gave her water - accepted her - and then told her to go sin no more, but he didn't beat the sin to death, he offered her an alternative to it. He saved the other woman from stoning and told those getting ready to do it that if they were without sin to cast the first stone.

 

My friend, who attends Southeast in Louisville, says that they would not accept a homosexual as being saved unless that homosexual denounced that lifestyle. How does he or anyone else know the heart of an individual and get to decide who is or is not saved? He also owns a porsche, a very large house, and has more than he needs, but no one has ever asked him to denounce his way of life - nor would I, b/c I don't claim to know his heart, but on the surface it appears to fly in face of the teachings of Jesus.

Are you implying that you can be save ONLY if you are baptized and join Southeast? Because there are other churches in Louisville that they could choose to go to if they choose to continue to live a sinful (notice I am lumping all sins here together) lifestyle. Let me also add that I feel that this has to happen over a period of time. If a person is baptized, I don't expect them to change over night. I don't expect them to change over a year. But if they are honestly seeking a life with Christ being in charge of their life, I would expect changes. Now 5 years into their walk and there has been no change, I think it is fair for an elder or the senior minister to have a serious talk with them, (should have also been mentoring them over the 5 years) and holding them accountable for continuing a sinful lifestyle.

 

Absolutely, Love should be the ACTIONS and not just the message.

 

If someone murdered you would you consider it a sin? If someone murders a child is it considered a sin? Since God said that BEFORE WE WERE BORN, HE KNEW US, why do you not consider the murder of an unborn baby a sin? I cannot understand a Christian in any way, shape or form, accepting abortion as okay.

 

I have known many, many situations that a wife or a parent or a child, loved, loved, loved and it didn't stop the sin. In fact, it might have gone just the other way and enabled it to continue.

 

Here is a story. A man loved his community. So much that he was willing to take all their punishment upon him. He loved them so much that he would do anything for him. And they murdered him. Did Jesus love for the Jews stop his murder?

 

I think what you say is done. It just doesn't sell on the media, so they do not cover it. Watching the media and news, do you think the ONLY thing that goes on in the country is murder and death with no one doing any good things to people? Because I don't see interviews with the volunteers that worked that day in the downtown Cincy soup kitchens but do see stories on a teenager taking a bb gun and shooting at a school bus. I don't take what I see on the national or local media and think that is the ONLY message Christians are spreading because I know that the media is only going to give a viewpoint that sells for them.

 

The media is NOT about reporting news but reporting stories that helps them make a profit. You can't judge Christians by what you see on the news.

What I am saying is that the message that comes from Southeast is often the message that unbelievers hear.

 

I am saying that fundamentalist Christians are on the airways more than moderate Christians are and they are the ones seen by the unchurched.

 

I am saying that Jesus tells us that Love is the most important thing and that if we continue to love one another and Love God that sin will begin to disappear first from our lives and then from the world. Not because we are afraid of going to hell but because we love God and have a relationship with God.

 

As for the death of Jesus, who killed him.

 

1) Jewish RELIGIOUS leaders who saw him as a threat to their power and authority b/c he preached a religion of love and forgiveness not of following and keeping rules. PRETTY POWERFUL

 

2) The Roman authorities whose ower and authority were threatened b/c Jesus preached a message of new Kingdom whose authority would be based on love and grace and not on the sword and oppression.

 

We can talk about atonement and its meaning in another thread.

What I am saying is that the message that comes from Southeast is often the message that unbelievers hear.

 

I am saying that fundamentalist Christians are on the airways more than moderate Christians are and they are the ones seen by the unchurched.

 

I am saying that Jesus tells us that Love is the most important thing and that if we continue to love one another and Love God that sin will begin to disappear first from our lives and then from the world. Not because we are afraid of going to hell but because we love God and have a relationship with God.

 

As for the death of Jesus, who killed him.

 

1) Jewish RELIGIOUS leaders who saw him as a threat to their power and authority b/c he preached a religion of love and forgiveness not of following and keeping rules. PRETTY POWERFUL

 

2) The Roman authorities whose ower and authority were threatened b/c Jesus preached a message of new Kingdom whose authority would be based on love and grace and not on the sword and oppression.

 

We can talk about atonement and its meaning in another thread.

It is the message they hear because it is the message they want to hear to often than not.

 

And the Jewish people who rejected his message of Love.

 

In point 2, you mention sword but yet Jesus himself said he didn't come to bring peace but division and HE would put family member against family member.

 

Yes, he preached about love but was resigned to the fact that it would not be embraced by all and division and hatred and dislike would be the cause of it. Remember, Jesus said, "the world will HATE you because of me."

 

While we should STRIVE for it, we have to realize it isn't going to fully happen. Jesus himself said that.

Ace...I'm still here. What do mean by the "Levitican law". Did you see my post showing that we are no longer under that Law. It has been done away with. The law of Moses isn't for us. The law is under Jesus Christ of the New Testament. That was my point in quoting Leviticus 18 & 19. Sorry we are bouncing around here. I have to work weird hours and it takes me a while to get back on here.

For you, the big sin is Abortion (I am not conviced it is a sin, I assume God will work with those individuals as he needs to) - For others it is homosexuality (not sure Paul or Moses had all of the science facts - even Al Mohler - president of southern baptist seminary - believes it is genetic now - does God create people to sin?) If it is genetic, and if it is a genetic Malady (not my belief necessarily) then is it also a sin to have CF or MDS?

The whole genetic arguement weakens the case in defense of any sin from this perspective... It could be argued that we are all born into sin via the original sin of Adam and Eve. The Bible states clearly in Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

You may define sin however you want, but we are all born into it (making it "genetic" in a very real human sense) and can only escape its bonds (according to the Bible) through Jesus Christ.

 

It has been argued that alcoholism may also be genetic, and yet we all agree that drunkeness and drunk driving is a very bad thing regardless of whether it's genetic of not.

 

Just because we are genetically disposed to certain ailments or vices does not mean that we simply roll over and give in to them.

 

Those with "CF or MDS" as you point out do not give in to the disease... they fight it, they resist it. We spend millions researching for cures for them.

 

The same must be said of sin, genetic or not. We must resist it, and there is only one cure... which soberly, we cannot attain by trying to rewrite the Bible.

It is the message they hear because it is the message they want to hear to often than not.

 

And the Jewish people who rejected his message of Love.

 

In point 2, you mention sword but yet Jesus himself said he didn't come to bring peace but division and HE would put family member against family member.

 

Yes, he preached about love but was resigned to the fact that it would not be embraced by all and division and hatred and dislike would be the cause of it. Remember, Jesus said, "the world will HATE you because of me."

 

While we should STRIVE for it, we have to realize it isn't going to fully happen. Jesus himself said that.

 

Given all of this, Jesus still preached a message of Love, forgiveness and acceptance.

 

Again do you think the Jesus meant he would turn families against one another violently? Or that there would be disagreement in families b/c some would reject him? He also meant that our first love MUST be for him, but then his love would flow through us to our family. If we love ourselves or our family first we cannot have his love. He is not talking about turning your back on your children 7 x 70.

What did Jesus tell his followers when his Mother Mary and his brothers came to see him? If you love Jesus and follow his teachings you can't go wrong with the way you feel for your family and others. Including people who dislike you. Thats a hard one too.