So driving at the money-changers at the temple by WHIPPING them is not a strong tirade?

 

Sure, but again it was about greed. I still think that way he habitually treated the Pharisses and the Saducees was the worst.

 

I would think his strongest language was for Peter who he called Satan.

 

I disagree with the preaching. My church's preaching is that Jesus will meet you where you are and help you grow in your Christian life by pruning those things that you will see stands in the way of your relationship with God and Christ.

 

Yes, God can take care of the sin but that does not give us free reign to sin as much as we like 'cause God will take care of it. Sounds too much like the rural politicians' son who figures he can break as many laws as he wishes cause ma politician will take care of it.

 

By take care of the sin, I mean convict you of it so that you want to repent and turn toward him. That is not my nor your job, it is God's, and yet that is the way we approach it.

 

How often is your church on national TV competing with the 700 Club and the Old Time Gospel Hour? That is the religion that people see. How often does your preacher show up on a sunday morning news show?

By take care of the sin, I mean convict you of it so that you want to repent and turn toward him. That is not my nor your job, it is God's, and yet that is the way we approach it.

 

How often is your church on national TV competing with the 700 Club and the Old Time Gospel Hour? That is the religion that people see. How often does your preacher show up on a sunday morning news show?

I believe the Holy Spirit can use sermons, studies, etc. to point out things in people's lives that are sinful.

 

I disagree, wholeheartedly, on the religion people see. Do you see the 700 club more or those people you work with, kids go to school with, people that wait on you in stores?

 

If the 700 club (how many unbelievers plop down on their couch and watch Pat Robertson each week?), is the religion that they see more than those Christians in your church, then I believe that your church needs to evaluate the job they are doing.

 

Same thing I am presently trying to get my church to do. We SHOULD NOT sit between 4 walls and wait for them to come to us. Nowhere do I see Jesus staying in one location for long periods of time and waiting for the people to come see him.

I believe the Holy Spirit can use sermons, studies, etc. to point out things in people's lives that are sinful.

 

I disagree, wholeheartedly, on the religion people see. Do you see the 700 club more or those people you work with, kids go to school with, people that wait on you in stores?

 

If the 700 club (how many unbelievers plop down on their couch and watch Pat Robertson each week?), is the religion that they see more than those Christians in your church, then I believe that your church needs to evaluate the job they are doing.

 

Same thing I am presently trying to get my church to do. We SHOULD NOT sit between 4 walls and wait for them to come to us. Nowhere do I see Jesus staying in one location for long periods of time and waiting for the people to come see him.

 

I think the religion that most people see is what they see on TV and they do see Robertson and Falwell, if not preaching, being spokespersons, I even saw Ralph Reed on Anderson Cooper last night. The also see the legislature BASHING homosexuals and never talking about the poor and downtrodden. They see "christians" like W talking about how God is on our side in this war (I thought God was for ALL PEOPLE). They see 'christian' talking about putting people in jail for trying to create a better life for themselves (see the immigration thread) and they see 'christians' talking about all of the lazy people on welfare, how the science of Global warming is junk, blah, blah, blah, that is the religion they see.

I think the religion that most people see is what they see on TV and they do see Robertson and Falwell, if not preaching, being spokespersons, I even saw Ralph Reed on Anderson Cooper last night. The also see the legislature BASHING homosexuals and never talking about the poor and downtrodden. They see "christians" like W talking about how God is on our side in this war (I thought God was for ALL PEOPLE). They see 'christian' talking about putting people in jail for trying to create a better life for themselves (see the immigration thread) and they see 'christians' talking about all of the lazy people on welfare, how the science of Global warming is junk, blah, blah, blah, that is the religion they see.

As you know I am a Christian. I have NO CLUE who Ralph Reed is.

 

I still don't think that someone that is an unbeliever watches Robertson/Falwell.

 

Are you telling me that this country see politicians as Christians?

 

Was God for those people that Israel defeated when Moses kept his arms raised? Or for those people inside Jericho when the walls fell?

 

Okay where is your seeing when church after church is going to the fallout of the Hurricane? Working to rebuild that area and provide supplies. Where is your seeing when my little town had hundreds if not thousands of "church people" from OUTSIDE OUR COUNTY come and visit our town after the flood? Where is your seeing when church after church is providing groceries, clothers and the like to the disinfortunate? Where is your seeing in the thread I posted in P & R about a church in Southern KY that is providing FREE health care? Where is your seeing when the Vineyard church in Cincinnati had a service project where they went into a gay/lesbian bar and cleaned the toilets?

 

I agree that we have some unfortunate representatives of Christianity that the national media likes to parade like a dog and pony show. But I think the true Christianity that people see is from the actions of their co-workers, their neighbors, their friends.

 

I think you are picking and choosing what you see and focusing on the negative. Because I see a lot (not enough but a lot) of the things that you long for.

As you know I am a Christian. I have NO CLUE who Ralph Reed is.

 

I still don't think that someone that is an unbeliever watches Robertson/Falwell.

 

Are you telling me that this country see politicians as Christians?

 

Was God for those people that Israel defeated when Moses kept his arms raised? Or for those people inside Jericho when the walls fell?

 

Okay where is your seeing when church after church is going to the fallout of the Hurricane? Working to rebuild that area and provide supplies. Where is your seeing when my little town had hundreds if not thousands of "church people" from OUTSIDE OUR COUNTY come and visit our town after the flood? Where is your seeing when church after church is providing groceries, clothers and the like to the disinfortunate? Where is your seeing in the thread I posted in P & R about a church in Southern KY that is providing FREE health care? Where is your seeing when the Vineyard church in Cincinnati had a service project where they went into a gay/lesbian bar and cleaned the toilets?

 

I agree that we have some unfortunate representatives of Christianity that the national media likes to parade like a dog and pony show. But I think the true Christianity that people see is from the actions of their co-workers, their neighbors, their friends.

 

I think you are picking and choosing what you see and focusing on the negative. Because I see a lot (not enough but a lot) of the things that you long for.

 

So you are associating us with the chosen people of Israel who were held under the oppressive rule of the Egyptians (in slavery)? WOW

 

(honestly, and I am not completely sure, but I think many of those stories read God back into what happened). Things were not going well with our enemies, God was not with us, things are going well with our enemies, God was not with us. Surely you don't believe God wanted someone to bash the heads of children against the rocks as the Psalmist says?

 

You also know that the story of Noah, was first told similarly many years before among the Sumerians and was part of the Epic of Gilgamesh?

 

I am not picking an choosing what I see, and I know what my church does and I know about disaster relief, but did you see any of that on television?

 

I am talking about what Fred Smith who lives on main street in London, Ky. hears about Christians. He does not go to church and doesn't work with many Christians. What he sees it what he gets on television from the talking heads. I agree non-Christians don' watch the 700 Club but Pat Roberston ran for President for goodness sakes, he is on TV in a lot of other places.

 

Ralph Reed is the former director of the PAC (i think it was a PAC) know as the Moral Majority. He is now a lobbyist and has been connected to Abramhoff.

“BTW someone earlier accused me of discounting 2000 years of orthodoxy, not so.”

That someone would be me, and I was specifically referring to your statement,

"I don't believe in a physical place called hell - I do believe in separation from God - which is what sin does."

In the full light of the teachings of Jesus on the subject, and in particular the full chapter of Matthew 25 you mentioned several times in this thread led me to conclude that “you have chosen to depart from the accepted orthodoxy of at least two thousand years” in regard to an actual place named Hell where Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25 that those not “saved” “redeemed” or otherwise “elected” to the rewards of Heaven will spend eternity with “the devil and his angels.”

 

Believe it or not, I am not a huge proponent of hellfire and brimstone preaching alone as a means of drawing souls to the church. No one needs mercy, grace and forgiveness more than myself. It is this compassion that draws me to God, and it is these qualities I believe we should practice and actually live for others. But to deny a very real day of judgment before our God, and the existence of Matthew 25:41 in which Jesus tells us He will say – “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” is reckless at best, and extremely deceptive at its worst.

 

I’m not interested in opinion or feelings on this matter. The only opinion that matters is what the Creator of all that is has to say about it. Jesus’ words could not be more clear. To deny them, or attempt to refashion them in a way that makes them easier to accept is the wrong way to go IMO.

 

Prove me wrong.

So you are associating us with the chosen people of Israel who were held under the oppressive rule of the Egyptians (in slavery)? WOW

 

(honestly, and I am not completely sure, but I think many of those stories read God back into what happened). Things were not going well with our enemies, God was not with us, things are going well with our enemies, God was not with us. Surely you don't believe God wanted someone to bash the heads of children against the rocks as the Psalmist says?

 

You also know that the story of Noah, was first told similarly many years before among the Sumerians and was part of the Epic of Gilgamesh?

 

I am not picking an choosing what I see, and I know what my church does and I know about disaster relief, but did you see any of that on television?

 

I am talking about what Fred Smith who lives on main street in London, Ky. hears about Christians. He does not go to church and doesn't work with many Christians. What he sees it what he gets on television from the talking heads. I agree non-Christians don' watch the 700 Club but Pat Roberston ran for President for goodness sakes, he is on TV in a lot of other places.

 

Ralph Reed is the former director of the PAC (i think it was a PAC) know as the Moral Majority. He is now a lobbyist and has been connected to Abramhoff.

At one time, I felt this was a Christian nation as you called it in the immigration thread. I know longer feel that way.

 

I do know Gilgamesh as I read about him in my Avengers comic books when he joined Captain America's team of Avengers.

 

If all Fred Smith has heard about Christianity is from Pat Robertson, I renew my statement that those churches in London Ky and those Christians in London KY need to re-evaluate what they are doing for the kingdom of God.

 

I bet if you interviewed 1,000 people who Ralph Redd is, 999 would have no clue.

 

So it is the Christians fault that the media won't portray all of the good that goes on in this country but immediately jump on one negative thing that someone might say. Do you think your view of Christianity is tainted by a biased media that wants to portray Christianity in a certain light because it sells for them?

 

What do you make of this? Do you not believe it occurred and that the book of Exodus is a lie?

Exodus 32

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

 

33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."

 

35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

 

Emphasis mine.

That someone would be me, and I was specifically referring to your statement, In the full light of the teachings of Jesus on the subject, and in particular the full chapter of Matthew 25 you mentioned several times in this thread led me to conclude that “you have chosen to depart from the accepted orthodoxy of at least two thousand years” in regard to an actual place named Hell where Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25 that those not “saved” “redeemed” or otherwise “elected” to the rewards of Heaven will spend eternity with “the devil and his angels.”

 

Believe it or not, I am not a huge proponent of hellfire and brimstone preaching alone as a means of drawing souls to the church. No one needs mercy, grace and forgiveness more than myself. It is this compassion that draws me to God, and it is these qualities I believe we should practice and actually live for others. But to deny a very real day of judgment before our God, and the existence of Matthew 25:41 in which Jesus tells us He will say – “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” is reckless at best, and extremely deceptive at its worst.

 

I’m not interested in opinion or feelings on this matter. The only opinion that matters is what the Creator of all that is has to say about it. Jesus’ words could not be more clear. To deny them, or attempt to refashion them in a way that makes them easier to accept is the wrong way to go IMO.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

:thumb:

:thumb:

 

I Peter 3:18

 

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righeous and the UNRIGHTEOUS, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preched to the spirits in prison (hell) who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the Ark was being built.

I Peter 3:18

 

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righeous and the UNRIGHTEOUS, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preched to the spirits in prison (hell) who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the Ark was being built.

You are not taking this as a literal translation are you?:sssh:

 

If so, why is this a believable literal translation for you and others are not? Is it because it fits with what you WANT to believe.

 

I think this is the point that several of us have been trying to make in the "picking and choosing" of Scriptures argument.

 

I think it is very dangerous to say this is literal and this is not because it then becomes LBBC's Scripture and Faith and not God's.

I Peter 3:18

 

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righeous and the UNRIGHTEOUS, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preched to the spirits in prison (hell) who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the Ark was being built.

 

What Bible translation are you using? I looked that passage up on BibleGateway using every translation they have available, just to be sure, and I found something quite interesting. It's really just one little word, but it's amazing how that can totally change the meaning of something.

 

I'll post a few of the translations of 1 Peter 3:18-20 here:

 

 

King James Version

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

New King James Version

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

 

New International Version

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water

 

New American Standard Bible

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

 

 

 

There is a big difference there when you change "for" to "and".

You are not taking this as a literal translation are you?:sssh:

 

If so, why is this a believable literal translation for you and others are not? Is it because it fits with what you WANT to believe.

 

I think this is the point that several of us have been trying to make in the "picking and choosing" of Scriptures argument.

 

I think it is very dangerous to say this is literal and this is not because it then becomes LBBC's Scripture and Faith and not God's.

 

I am not taking it literally, but I believe that there is theological truth in all of it. In all scripture. The theological truth in revelation is that God is ultimately victorious no matter who is ruling the world at any given time. The theological truth of the creation story is that God is the creator and that mankind is the ultimate/final creation. The theological truth of the old testament is that things go better when you are trying to do God's will, the Theological truth of the new testament is that God is a loving God and wishes for no one to perish, even to the point of sending his son to live and die as a man, and that Jesus is the closest thing we have of a TRUE vision of God - much better than the vision of God that Moses had, or any of the prophets of the Old Testament. I have not fleshed this out completely, but I am still an emerging Christian.

 

No one on this board takes the scripture literally, or we would be living like the Mennonites - Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and we do not follow the Leviticus code, and don't even try.

I am not taking it literally, but I believe that there is theological truth in all of it. In all scripture. The theological truth in revelation is that God is ultimately victorious no matter who is ruling the world at any given time. The theological truth of the creation story is that God is the creator and that mankind is the ultimate/final creation. The theological truth of the old testament is that things go better when you are trying to do God's will, the Theological truth of the new testament is that God is a loving God and wishes for no one to perish, even to the point of sending his son to live and die as a man, and that Jesus is the closest thing we have of a TRUE vision of God - much better than the vision of God that Moses had, or any of the prophets of the Old Testament. I have not fleshed this out completely, but I am still an emerging Christian.

 

No one on this board takes the scripture literally, or we would be living like the Mennonites - Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and we do not follow the Leviticus code, and don't even try.

 

How do the mennonites live? I take the scriptures literally when possible. There are obviously places where symbolism is obvious, but to a large degree, the Bible can be taken literally and I think a large number of Christians do so.

 

I think it's dangerous to spiritualize everything in the Bible...not only dangerous, but misleading. It also allows people a lot more wiggle room in coming up with their own interpretation...it creates a lot of gray area, when a lot of it should be black and white.

How do the mennonites live? I take the scriptures literally when possible. There are obviously places where symbolism is obvious, but to a large degree, the Bible can be taken literally and I think a large number of Christians do so.

 

I think it's dangerous to spiritualize everything in the Bible...not only dangerous, but misleading. It also allows people a lot more wiggle room in coming up with their own interpretation...it creates a lot of gray area, when a lot of it should be black and white.

 

How do you decide when not to take it literally? Aren't you then thrusting your own ideas and beliefs on the scripture?

 

How can you say that the Levitican Law is symbolic, if you are taking it literally? Do you gouge your eye out or cut your hand off when it offends you? Do you cut your hair on the ends and trim your beard? Do women remain silent in your church.

 

When you try to make it all black and white it/you (the general you) becomes legalistic and then we are back to the Pharisees and the Saducees.

People...I really enjoy reading your comments. Ace, thanks for your comeback. I'll try not to be so...oh whats the word I want. Well, I just read more than comment.

 

One key word to remember for everyone is "Interpretation".