I don't believe in a physical place called hell - I do believe in separation from God - which is what sin does.

 

I figured it would be easier to address my views on this subject in a separate post.

 

The Bible seems to make it pretty clear that there is a real place called hell and there is a real place of eternal punishment for unbelievers.

 

On several occasions, Jesus referenced an outer darkness and furnace of fire that some would be sent to where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Mark 9:43, 44 If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

 

The Book of Revelation has some pretty strong verses about an eternal place of torment as well.

 

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Revelation 20:4-6, 10-15 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years...The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Also, the Book of Daniel speaks of this...

 

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Those are a few of the verses that I base my view on. There are other verses, but I didn't see the need to make this too long. I'd love to believe that there isn't a place of eternal torment, but I just don't see any way to reach that conclusion from scripture.

I figured it would be easier to address my views on this subject in a separate post.

 

The Bible seems to make it pretty clear that there is a real place called hell and there is a real place of eternal punishment for unbelievers.

 

On several occasions, Jesus referenced an outer darkness and furnace of fire that some would be sent to where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Mark 9:43, 44 If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

 

The Book of Revelation has some pretty strong verses about an eternal place of torment as well.

 

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Revelation 20:4-6, 10-15 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years...The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Also, the Book of Daniel speaks of this...

 

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Those are a few of the verses that I base my view on. There are other verses, but I didn't see the need to make this too long. I'd love to believe that there isn't a place of eternal torment, but I just don't see any way to reach that conclusion from scripture.

 

I think eternal separation from the love of God is eternal torment. I just don't believe in a physical hell. Biblical authors had the use words that we could understand. We can't completely understand the physical, how could we possible understand the ephemeral or spiritual.

 

Revelations is primarily all metaphor and symbolism . . .

I think eternal separation from the love of God is eternal torment. I just don't believe in a physical hell. Biblical authors had the use words that we could understand. We can't completely understand the physical, how could we possible understand the ephemeral or spiritual.

 

Revelations is primarily all metaphor and symbolism . . .

 

Your understanding of Heaven/Hell is identical to that of the Mormon Church. The Mormons do not believe there is a Hell, per se; they believe that non-Mormon sinners and Mormon heretics only achieve the "telestial" Kingdom of God, that is, the afterlife that is most separated from God and "dimmest" in His light, for lack of a better phrase. The "telestial" kingdom is an afterlife of torment because it is separated from God, but it is not Hell.

I think eternal separation from the love of God is eternal torment. I just don't believe in a physical hell. Biblical authors had the use words that we could understand. We can't completely understand the physical, how could we possible understand the ephemeral or spiritual.

 

Revelations is primarily all metaphor and symbolism . . .

 

That depends on how you choose to interpret it, I suppose. Undoubtedly, it has a lot of symbolism in it, but there are various views on exactly what it all means. I'm assuming ours differ.

 

What would be the point in unbelievers being resurrected for judgement and cast into a lake of fire if it wasn't a real physical place?

That depends on how you choose to interpret it, I suppose. Undoubtedly, it has a lot of symbolism in it, but there are various views on exactly what it all means. I'm assuming ours differ.

 

What would be the point in unbelievers being resurrected for judgement and cast into a lake of fire if it wasn't a real physical place?

 

It is certainly possible that John was looking for the worst possible place to describe what it would be like without the presence of God. He chose Gehenna. It may also be that John was describing a place where fire 'purified' the soul after death.

 

Anybody attempting to bring "real meaning" to the words of Revelation can do nothing but make an educated Guess. You cannot KNOW what it all means.

It is certainly possible that John was looking for the worst possible place to describe what it would be like without the presence of God. He chose Gehenna. It may also be that John was describing a place where fire 'purified' the soul after death.

 

Anybody attempting to bring "real meaning" to the words of Revelation can do nothing but make an educated Guess. You cannot KNOW what it all means.

 

I don't claim to, but I think you can get a pretty good idea about much of it if you use the rest of the Bible to help interpret it.

 

In any case, you didn't answer my question...what would be the point in a resurrection of unbelievers if they weren't being cast into a real physical place?

Ace...with all due respect I believe you are "pickin and Choosing scripture" again. When Jesus spoke of the Rich man in torment it wasn't a parable. He was telling us that you have to do something and with your actions keeps you out of torment because once you are there its over.

Ace...with all due respect I believe you are "pickin and Choosing scripture" again. When Jesus spoke of the Rich man in torment it wasn't a parable. He was telling us that you have to do something and with your actions keeps you out of torment because once you are there its over.

 

Then why would Jesus go to hell and preach?

 

If I am picking and choosing, are you ignoring? I have put a lot of different scripture references on this thread, if I am picking and choosing, I am picking and choosing a lot of them.

 

I believe that there are those who will reject Christ in this life, but just like the parable of the Waiting Father (prodigal son) Jesus/God will always be ready to accept them, when they are finally compelled through the love of God to turn toward God. Prior to that turning they will have an existence of absence from everything that we associate with God - primarily Faith, Hope, and Love.

....

I think there are those who would say that they are not saved, and yet they live a life very pleasing to God, and that has to be pleasing to God - does it not? I think they live the Gospel of Matthew 25 - exactly as it is written and in so doing I think that Jesus may find them, even if they don't find Jesus.

 

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Question on the first, what if that person suffers a physical death and did not ever feel compelled to turn towards God.

 

Question on the second, does that correspond with what Jesus said that the ONLY way to know the father is to know the Son? Do you want to make a distinction here between someone that has been told about Jesus and decided to not acknowledge him and someone that has never been told about Jesus? Are you saying that someone can be "good" enough to make it into heaven?

I’m going to try to tackle this in bite sized chunks. :thumb:

 

In no way did I intend to dismiss your reading of the scripture, nor intend to say I am right and you are wrong. I was speaking to the recklessness of pulling verses we like, and ignoring those we don't and building a theology based upon excerpts.

 

You can say what you want about “my theology”, but I assure you it is not built upon what I find comfortable. I've changed greatly as I have drawn nearer to God... including many of my previous beliefs. I've gotten to the point that if it is not in the Bible, or in line with what the Bible teaches, I don't want it in me. I’m a long way from where I’d like to be, but simply put, “my theology” is the Bible… nothing more, nothing less.

 

For me to state this and actually mean it means that I need to understand what it is the Bible accurately says... not what I think it "should" say.

Amen from me and what I hope to be doing also. Some thoughts have been pruned from my thinking and what I would want to think because they did not line up with what Scripture indicates.

Then why would Jesus go to hell and preach?

 

If I am picking and choosing, are you ignoring? I have put a lot of different scripture references on this thread, if I am picking and choosing, I am picking and choosing a lot of them.

If you don't believe in hell, how did Jesus go preach there?

If you don't believe in hell, how did Jesus go preach there?

 

I don't believe in a physical hell. There doesn't need to be one, if we don't have physical bodies.

I don't believe in a physical hell. There doesn't need to be one, if we don't have physical bodies.

Where does it indicate that we will not have physcial bodies? I know it says we will have new bodies. I also know that there is an emerging thought, Randy Alcorn's book Heaven is a good read on this, that Heaven will be setup here on an NEW Earth.

Still no response to Matthew 25? You either have to completely dismiss that chapter, or you have to do some real strong interpretation or make some assumptions that simply are not in there.

What specifically are you asking in reponse to Matthew 25? This is a lengthy chapter containing the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the talents and the parable of the sheep and the goats... not to mention at least three references to a place of torment reserved for those (human souls) not saved.

 

If you throw out logic, as was suggested in another post, and you throw out reasoning, how do you understand what the Bible accurate says? Besides that, why would God give us the power of logic and reasoning if we were not supposed to use it?

I couldn't agree more with the fact that God imbued us with a brain capable of reason and logic so that we might use it for this purpose. Please show me where I have ever suggested that we toss these gifts of reason and critical thinking aside for any purpose whatsoever. :creepy:

 

I make no judgment on your theology, but you certainly did on mine.

I have yet to "judge" your theology. I do however take exception to picking and choosing scripture to suit our desired outcomes. The fact that in post #4 of this thread you stated, "I don't believe in a physical place called hell - I do believe in separation from God - which is what sin does." led me to conclude that you have chosen to depart from the accepted orthodoxy of at least two thousand years.

 

You keep asking for an explanation of Matthew 25, when that very chapter documents Jesus' specific references to:

 

30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' From this verse alone, one could conceivably deduce that the unsaved could spend eternity outside the walls of Heaven, but not necessarily in a place called Hell.

 

However, if we read on Jesus drives the point home:

 

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. This is more than a mere sin induced separation from God in a dark place outside the gates of Heaven. It is a place of actual "punishment" that most reasonably refer to as "Hell".

 

We read further to find:

 

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Again, this cannot be reasonably interpreted as merely a sin induced separation from God.

 

Mine too has changed dramatically over the years. I grew up in a fundamentalist baptist church in SouthEastern Kentucky that was all about condemnation and ways to stay out of hell. I have come now to believe that Christianity is about love and showing God's grace to those around me.

I agree that Christians should be more focused upon exhibiting God's Love and Grace than in dispensing condemnation, but to deny or ignore the very clear reality of an "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" in a place of "eternal punishment" as described by Jesus Himself is reckless IMO.

What evidence do you have that He is merciful?

Where does it say anywhere that He is fair?

.

 

Did you REALLY ask those two questions? I may have taken you out of context but just in case anyone is wondering about these questions:

 

Merciful- Titus 3:5

Fair (Just)-1st John 1:9