So with Male and Manual facing off on Friday, I went ahead and had my annual perusal of the Wikipedia article for the Male vs. Manual "Old Rivalry" football game the other day to see what the overall record is in the series. Figured I'd give this its own thread since there's a lot of interesting stuff regarding The Old Rivalry

I knew The Old Rivalry was one of the oldest high school football rivalries west of the Appalachians. It was tied as 3rd oldest when I had checked for the first time, years ago, with Hyde Park Academy (Chicago) vs. Englewood Technical Prep Academy (Chicago) clocking in as the oldest. What I did't realize was that following the 2008 closing of Englewood, The Old Rivalry officially moved up into a tie for the 2nd oldest high school football rivalry east of the Appalachians:

T1) Central (Pueblo, CO) vs. Centennial (Pueblo, CO) - 1892
T1) Abilene (Abilene, KS) vs. Chapman (Chapman, KS) - 1892
T2) Bradford (Bradford, PA) vs. Olean (Olean, NY) - 1893
T2) DuPont Manual (Louisville, KY) vs. Male (Louisville, KY) - 1893
T2) East Aurora (Aurora, IL) vs. West Aurora (Aurora, IL) - 1893
T2) Sacred Heart Cathedral (San Francisco, CA) vs. St. Ignatius (San Francisco, CA) - 1893

-----------------------------------

Oldest Football Rivalries West of the Appalachians:

1887
University of Michigan vs. Notre Dame University

1888
University of Cincinnati vs. Miami University

1889
Northwestern University vs. Notre Dame University

1890
University of Illinois vs. Purdue University
University of Minnesota vs. University of Wisconsin

1891
Indiana University vs. Purdue University
University of Kansas vs. University of Missouri
University of Iowa vs. University of Minnesota
University of Iowa vs. University of Nebraska

1892
Abilene High School (Abilene, KS) vs. Chapman High School (Chapman, KS)
Auburn University vs. Georgia Tech
Auburn University vs. University of Georgia
Central High School (Pueblo, CO) vs. Centennial High School (Pueblo, CO)
Georgia Tech vs. Vanderbilt University
Northwestern University vs. University of Michigan
University of California vs. Stanford University
University of Kansas vs. University of Nebraska
University of Michigan vs. University of Minnesota
University of Missouri vs. University of Nebraska
University of Tennessee vs. Vanderbilt University

1893
Auburn University vs. University of Alabama
Bradford Area High School (Bradford, PA) vs. Olean High School (Olean, NY)
Colorado State University vs. University of Colorado
DuPont Manual High School (Louisville, KY) vs. Male High School (Louisville, KY)
East Aurora High School (Aurora, IL) vs. West Aurora High School (Aurora, IL)
Indiana University vs. University of Kentucky
Louisiana State University vs. Tulane University
Sacred Heart Cathedral Prep (San Francisco, CA) vs. St. Ignatius Prep (San Francisco, CA)
University of Georgia vs. Georgia Tech
University of Kentucky vs. University of Tennessee
University of Mississippi vs. Tulane University

-----------------------------------

Somerset vs. Danville is the next oldest high school football rivalry in Kentucky behind Male vs. Manual, and that series saw its first meeting after Male and Manual had already played each other 26 times. (Male & Manual played each other multiple times a season in the earlier years, due to lack of competitors.)

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Way back when, Male was known simply as "High School" and Manual was known as "Louisville Manual Training School," which is semi-well known, at least around the Louisville area. But the interesting thing is that since mascots and nicknames for sports teams didn't really exist at the point in time where their football teams started playing, the collective names given to the members of the teams were the High School 'High Schools' and the Louisville Manual Training School 'Manuals'. Kinda gives me a chuckle.

I also didn't know that for a four-year period, from the 1914-15 school year through the 1918-19 school year, Male and Manual consolidated into one school, and then split back apart beginning with the 1919-20 school year.

-----------------------------------

Male & Manual started playing each other in football before there was any real governing body that officially set universal rules for football. Here's the text of the Nov 18, 1893 Courier-Journal article written about the first game. Based on the text, it took me a good while to make heads or tails of the final score from the game, which Male won 14-12:



By modern rules, if Manual ran the ball down to the 5 yard line and fumbled it over the goal line (there was no actual endzone, simply a goal line to cross at the end of the field) and then a Male player jumped on the ball behind the goal line that they were defending, shouldn't that be a touchback for Male? How does that count as a safety for Manual? What gives?

According to what I've found, college gridiron football rules in 1893 assigned the following point values to each of the different methods of scoring:
(6) points for a touch-down with a successful goal-from-touch-down (conversion kick) after it.
(5) points for a goal, also known as a goal-from-field, aka, a field goal.
(4) points for a touch-down without a made goal-from-touch-down.
(2) points for a safety.

So reading the article, Male had two touchdowns without successfully kicking the goal after to convert (2 x 4 = 8pts) and one touchdown with a successfully kicked goal to convert (1 x 6 = 6pts). So that gives Male 6pts + 8pts = 14pts.

Then Manual had one touchdown without successfully kicking the goal after to convert (1 x 4 = 4pts) and one touchdown with a successfully kicked goal to convert (1 x 6 = 6pts), and then Male's mishap of jumping on Manual's fumbled ball in their own endzone gave Manual one safety (1 x 2 = 2pts). So that gives Manual 4pts + 6pts + 2pts = 12pts.

Historical Scoring in Gridiron Football

Era	Touchdown	Goal-From-Field a.k.a. Field Goal	Goal-From-Touchdown a.k.a. PAT Kick	PAT Conversion *	Safety	Conversion Safety **	Defensive Conversion ***
1883	2	5	4	–	1	–	–
1883–1897	4	5	2	–	2	–	–
1898–1903	5	5	1	–	2	–	–
1904–1908	5	4	1	–	2	–	–
1909–1911	5	3	1	–	2	–	–
1912–1957	6	3	1	–	2	–	–
1958–present	6	3	1	2	2	1	2

* Conversion after touchdown, scored by successfully rushing the ball into the endzone or completing a pass into the endzone.
** Occurs when the ball carrier for the team attempting a PAT Kick or PAT Conversion is tackled in their own endzone.
*** Occurs when the defense gains possession of the ball on a PAT Kick or PAT Conversion and returns it to the opposite endzone.

In most games pre-dating 1909 or so, it was basically standard operating procedure for coaches and officials to meet days prior to the game in order to come to a consensus on the rules they would be observing for the upcoming game. Kinda reminds me of college, and the need for everyone to go over 'house rules' prior to playing beer-pong. Common points of discussion for football coaches/officials included which penalties would be observed in the game, along with yardage assessed for penalties, number of offensive players allowed on/off the line of scrimmage, procedures for substitutions, length of quarters, time stoppages, and assessed values for various scoring methods. Some versions of the rules would notably not count any points for touchdowns without a successful conversion kick afterwards, and other versions even deducted points for unsuccessful conversion kick tries.

-----------------------------------

It really doesn't matter a whole hill of beans, but a little while back I started kind of "casually" researching the actual year-by-year results of The Old Rivalry just for giggles, since the win/loss/tie summary shown for the series in the Wikipedia article is not currently up to date and since it's seldom published elsewhere. The most recently published W/L/T summary I could find was put out by the Courier-Journal just prior to the 2015 game, where they stated that Male led the series 81-45-6 following the 2014 game. So with that info, that means at current (following the conclusion of the 2022 football season), the series record is at 89-45-6 in Male's favor.

Anyway, when I went looking back through records of things, I think there's actually a possibility that the CJ's results for the series (which are more or less accepted as being the official record of the series) may be inaccurate. Long story short, I believe the CJ's record is based off of an article from Thanksgiving Day 1934, which was the published the morning of the (alleged) 50th installment of The Old Rivalry. That article is the first full accountancy of all the previous game results, and it shows Male & Manual as having played three times in 1896.

There have been multiple years where they played 2 and 3 games in a single season, but there were not three games in 1896. That year there were two varsity games, and then one game played between the "High School Seconds" and "Manual Training School Seconds". So in other words, it was a JV game. According to the article that the CJ published on Nov 14, 1896, the game from the day before was played between the "seconds", that Male had won the game 6-0. There were two other Old Rivalry games the CJ published articles about in 1896, with Male winning 28-10 on Nov 26, and then with Male winning 22-0 on Dec 5. However, looking at the series results summary from that 1934 article, they give Male three varsity wins in 1896, by scores of 6-0, 28-10, and 22-0. So they're including a "JV game" as a varsity win.

Then additionally I found that the 1934 article gives all three wins from the 1897 season to Male, when actually Male won two games and Manual won one game. Likewise, it gives all three wins from the 1899 season to Manual, when Manual actually won 2 games and Male won 1. (The inaccuracies from the 1897 & 1899 season results would negate one another in the total W/L/T tally.) But anyway, it shows that that 1934 article should for sure not be considered definitive, and if the CJ did end up continuing to use that accountancy as official canon, then their count is gonna be off by at least 1, if not more.

So yeah, long story short, someday, sometime in the future, I'll have a full list of the dates of each of the games and the final scores for the Old Rivalry.

My grandfather was RB for Male in 1937 and these pics are from his scrapbook from Male/Manual game that year.

Series scores from early years up to 1937.

8 minutes ago, Tigerpride94 said:

Series scores from early years up to 1937.

Ha! That 1937 article lists the same errors that were made in the 1934 article I mentioned in the original post! So again in 1937, they're still incorrectly showing the result of a "JV game" from the 1896 season as a varsity result, they're still incorrectly showing Male as sweeping all three games in 1897, and they're still incorrectly showing Manual as sweeping all three games in 1899.

That adds to my suspicions that the Courier-Journal's most recent wins/losses/ties total might be incorrect.

Here are the yearly results maintained by a Male historian from 1893-2005 with the KHSAA scoreboard picking it up from there. Male credits Manual with the "seconds" win in 1896 and they have the correct winners of the games in 1897 and 1899.

Year/Winner/Score
1893 Male 14-12
1894 Male 12-10
1894 Male 6-0
1895 Male 22-0 
1895 Male 12-0 
1896 Manual 6-0
1896 Male 28-10
1896 Male 22-0
1897 Male 10-0 
1897 Male 10-6
1897 Manual 22-0
1898 Male 17-5
1898 Male 6-5
1899 Manual 6-0
1899 Male 17-0 
1899 Manual 23-12
1900 Male 21-6
1901 Male 17-0
1901 Male 11-0
1902 Manual 6-0
1902 Male 10-5
1903 Manual 17-7
1904 Male 11-0
1905 Male 6-5
1906 Male 12-8
1907 Male 18-5
1908 Manual 16-0
1909 Male 5-0
1910 Male 5-0
1911 Male 16-0
1912 Male 28-7
1913 Male 13-6
1914 Manual 7-0
1919 Male 81-0
1920 Male 21-13
1921 Tie 0-0
1922 Manual 29-14
1923 Manual 7-6
1924 Male 14-9
1925 Manual 36-0 
1926 Male 3-0
1927 Manual 6-0
1928 Male 24-0
1929 Male 7-0
1930 Manual 7-6
1930 Tie 6-6 
1931 Male 14-0
1932 Male 4-0
1933 Manual 20-13
1934 Manual 19-12
1935 Male 26-13
1936 Manual 27-0
1937 Male 25-20
1938 Manual 40-7
1939 Manual 20-13
1940 Manual 25-10
1941 Manual 13-7
1942 Manual 26-6
1943 Male 26-7
1944 Tie 7-7
1945 Male 20-7
1946 Manual 45-7
1947 Male 21-7
1948 Manual 14-0
1949 Tie 0-0
1950 Male 7-0 
1951 Male 12-0
1952 Male 30-0
1953 Male 14-13
1954 Male 33-6
1955 Male 6-0
1956 Tie 6-6 
1957 Male 14-0
1958 Male 27-12
1959 Manual 62-0
1960 Male 20-6
1961 Tie 13-13
1962 Manual 13-0
1963 Male 28-7
1964 Male 14-0
1965 Male 13-7
1966 Male 20-7
1967 Male 39-0
1968 Male 15-0
1969 Manual 20-6
1970 Male 27-7
1971 Manual 53-6
1972 Manual 29-0
1973 Manual 12-7
1974 Male 21-14
1975 Male 10-7
1976 Manual 24-0
1977 Manual 36-6
1978 Manual 22-8
1979 Manual 14-0
1980 Manual 6-0
1981 Manual 23-0
1982 Manual 3-0
1983 Male 7-6
1984 Male 42-7
1985 Male 30-0
1986 Male 28-6
1987 Male 21-2
1988 Manual 24-0
1988 Manual 21-14
1989 Male 26-0
1990 Male 35-12
1991 Male 25-6
1992 Male 20-12
1993 Male 40-20
1994 Male 53-14
1995 Male 33-6
1996 Male 43-9
1997 Male 58-6
1998 Male 55-10
1999 Male 45-19
2000 Male 49-0
2001 Manual 20-13
2002 Male 26-0
2002 Male 27-0
2003 Male 32-26
2004 Male 24-23
2005 Male 31-28
2006 Male 35-7
2007 Manual 34-14
2008 Manual 41-24
2009 Male 27-14
2010 Manual 21-14
2011 Manual 23-14
2012 Manual 24-14
2013 Manual 32-29
2014 Male 28-21
2015 Male 43-7
2015 Male 36-0
2016 Male 27-14
2017 Male 27-20 
2018 Male 48-0
2019 Male 22-21
2021 Male 23-0
2022 Male 14-3
2023 Male 30-23
2024 Manual 21-0
2025 Manual 52-13

42 minutes ago, DevilMayCare said:

Here are the yearly results maintained by Male from 1893-2005 with the KHSAA scoreboard picking it up from there. Male credits Manual with the "seconds" win in 1896 and they have the correct winners of the games in 1897 and 1899.

Year/Winner/Score

1893 Male 14-12

1894 Male 12-10

1894 Male 6-0

1895 Male 22-0 

1895 Male 12-0 

1896 Manual 6-0

1896 Male 28-10

1896 Male 22-0

1897 Male 10-0 

1897 Male 10-6

1897 Manual 22-0

1898 Male 17-5

1898 Male 6-5

1899 Manual 6-0

1899 Male 17-0 

1899 Manual 23-12

1900 Male 21-6

1901 Male 17-0

1901 Male 11-0

1902 Manual 6-0

1902 Male 10-5

1903 Manual 17-7

1904 Male 11-0

1905 Male 6-5

1906 Male 12-8

1907 Male 18-5

1908 Manual 16-0

1909 Male 5-0

1910 Male 5-0

1911 Male 16-0

1912 Male 28-7

1913 Male 13-6

1914 Manual 7-0

1919 Male 81-0

1920 Male 21-13

1921 Tie 0-0

1922 Manual 29-14

1923 Manual 7-6

1924 Male 14-9

1925 Manual 36-0 

1926 Male 3-0

1927 Manual 6-0

1928 Male 24-0

1929 Male 7-0

1930 Manual 7-6

1930 Tie 6-6 

1931 Male 14-0

1932 Male 4-0

1933 Manual 20-13

1934 Manual 19-12

1935 Male 26-13

1936 Manual 27-0

1937 Male 25-20

1938 Manual 40-7

1939 Manual 20-13

1940 Manual 25-10

1941 Manual 13-7

1942 Manual 26-6

1943 Male 26-7

1944 Tie 7-7

1945 Male 20-7

1946 Manual 45-7

1947 Male 21-7

1948 Manual 14-0

1949 Tie 0-0

1950 Male 7-0 

1951 Male 12-0

1952 Male 30-0

1953 Male 14-13

1954 Male 33-6

1955 Male 6-0

1956 Tie 6-6 

1957 Male 14-0

1958 Male 27-12

1959 Manual 62-0

1960 Male 20-6

1961 Tie 13-13

1962 Manual 13-0

1963 Male 28-7

1964 Male 14-0

1965 Male 13-7

1966 Male 20-7

1967 Male 39-0

1968 Male 15-0

1969 Manual 20-6

1970 Male 27-7

1971 Manual 53-6

1972 Manual 29-0

1973 Manual 12-7

1974 Male 21-14

1975 Male 10-7

1976 Manual 24-0

1977 Manual 36-6

1978 Manual 22-8

1979 Manual 14-0

1980 Manual 6-0

1981 Manual 23-0

1982 Manual 3-0

1983 Male 7-6

1984 Male 42-7

1985 Male 30-0

1986 Male 28-6

1987 Male 21-2

1988 Manual 24-0

1988 Manual 21-14

1989 Male 26-0

1990 Male 35-12

1991 Male 25-6

1992 Male 20-12

1993 Male 40-20

1994 Male 53-14

1995 Male 33-6

1996 Male 43-9

1997 Male 58-6

1998 Male 55-10

1999 Male 45-19

2000 Male 49-0

2001 Manual 20-13

2002 Male 26-0

2002 Male 27-0

2003 Male 32-26

2004 Male 24-23

2005 Male 31-28

2006 Male 35-7

2007 Manual 34-14

2008 Manual 41-24

2009 Male 27-14

2010 Manual 21-14

2011 Manual 23-14

2012 Manual 24-14

2013 Manual 32-29

2014 Male 28-21

2015 Male 43-7

2015 Male 36-0

2016 Male 27-14

2017 Male 27-20 

2018 Male 48-0

2019 Male 22-21

2021 Male 23-0

2022 Male 14-3

Hi-ho, Silver! That 1919 game. Ouch.

Are the folks at Male sure they didn't accidentally play the Little Sisters Of The Poor 3rd grade team?

11 hours ago, DevilMayCare said:

Here are the yearly results maintained by Male from 1893-2005 with the KHSAA scoreboard picking it up from there. Male credits Manual with the "seconds" win in 1896 and they have the correct winners of the games in 1897 and 1899.

Year/Winner/Score

1893 Male 14-12

1894 Male 12-10

1894 Male 6-0

1895 Male 22-0 

1895 Male 12-0 

1896 Manual 6-0

1896 Male 28-10

1896 Male 22-0

1897 Male 10-0 

1897 Male 10-6

1897 Manual 22-0

1898 Male 17-5

1898 Male 6-5

1899 Manual 6-0

1899 Male 17-0 

1899 Manual 23-12

1900 Male 21-6

1901 Male 17-0

1901 Male 11-0

1902 Manual 6-0

1902 Male 10-5

1903 Manual 17-7

1904 Male 11-0

1905 Male 6-5

1906 Male 12-8

1907 Male 18-5

1908 Manual 16-0

1909 Male 5-0

1910 Male 5-0

1911 Male 16-0

1912 Male 28-7

1913 Male 13-6

1914 Manual 7-0

1919 Male 81-0

1920 Male 21-13

1921 Tie 0-0

1922 Manual 29-14

1923 Manual 7-6

1924 Male 14-9

1925 Manual 36-0 

1926 Male 3-0

1927 Manual 6-0

1928 Male 24-0

1929 Male 7-0

1930 Manual 7-6

1930 Tie 6-6 

1931 Male 14-0

1932 Male 4-0

1933 Manual 20-13

1934 Manual 19-12

1935 Male 26-13

1936 Manual 27-0

1937 Male 25-20

1938 Manual 40-7

1939 Manual 20-13

1940 Manual 25-10

1941 Manual 13-7

1942 Manual 26-6

1943 Male 26-7

1944 Tie 7-7

1945 Male 20-7

1946 Manual 45-7

1947 Male 21-7

1948 Manual 14-0

1949 Tie 0-0

1950 Male 7-0 

1951 Male 12-0

1952 Male 30-0

1953 Male 14-13

1954 Male 33-6

1955 Male 6-0

1956 Tie 6-6 

1957 Male 14-0

1958 Male 27-12

1959 Manual 62-0

1960 Male 20-6

1961 Tie 13-13

1962 Manual 13-0

1963 Male 28-7

1964 Male 14-0

1965 Male 13-7

1966 Male 20-7

1967 Male 39-0

1968 Male 15-0

1969 Manual 20-6

1970 Male 27-7

1971 Manual 53-6

1972 Manual 29-0

1973 Manual 12-7

1974 Male 21-14

1975 Male 10-7

1976 Manual 24-0

1977 Manual 36-6

1978 Manual 22-8

1979 Manual 14-0

1980 Manual 6-0

1981 Manual 23-0

1982 Manual 3-0

1983 Male 7-6

1984 Male 42-7

1985 Male 30-0

1986 Male 28-6

1987 Male 21-2

1988 Manual 24-0

1988 Manual 21-14

1989 Male 26-0

1990 Male 35-12

1991 Male 25-6

1992 Male 20-12

1993 Male 40-20

1994 Male 53-14

1995 Male 33-6

1996 Male 43-9

1997 Male 58-6

1998 Male 55-10

1999 Male 45-19

2000 Male 49-0

2001 Manual 20-13

2002 Male 26-0

2002 Male 27-0

2003 Male 32-26

2004 Male 24-23

2005 Male 31-28

2006 Male 35-7

2007 Manual 34-14

2008 Manual 41-24

2009 Male 27-14

2010 Manual 21-14

2011 Manual 23-14

2012 Manual 24-14

2013 Manual 32-29

2014 Male 28-21

2015 Male 43-7

2015 Male 36-0

2016 Male 27-14

2017 Male 27-20 

2018 Male 48-0

2019 Male 22-21

2021 Male 23-0

2022 Male 14-3

I stated that these yearly results were "maintained by Male". Turns out, that's not actually true. It appears this was all cultivated/gathered by a Male football historian operating independently from the school.

This is probably as accurate or perhaps more so than any other source, but not endorsed by Male.

Alright, I got my discrepancy from the original post rectified. It turns out there were 3 varsity games in 1896, plus one game between the second teams (JV). The first varsity game and the second team game were both won 6-0 by Manual, plus for some reason the varsity game wasn't pulling up in the archive word search, so I had to find a source that had the date of the game and then I was able to find the Courier-Journal from the next day and read through it until I found the game. Thanks to @DevilMayCare for getting me pointed in the right direction, there.

So yeah, this year's game will be the 141st installment of The Old Rivalry, and Male is currently leading the series 89-45-6. That means Friday night gives the Bulldogs the chance to double up the Crimsons in wins.

Longest win-streak in the series is 12 games, by Male, from 1989-2000. Male also has the second-longest win-streak with 9 games from 1950-1958 and their current streak, starting in 2014. Manual's longest win-streak was 7 games, from 1976-1982.

Largest margin of victory was Male in 1919 with an 81-0 win. Manual has the second-largest margin of victory with their 62-0 win in 1959.

The teams have only met in the playoffs three times: 1988 (Manual won in overtime), 2002, and 2015.

Not counting the first 10 or 15 years of the series, the closest the series win/loss/tie record has ever been was in 1942, when Male led the series 35-21-2.

High hoisting "The Barrel" - from @Breds82in the Traveling Trophies thread.

That’s what I’m talking about. Keep these type of rivalries alive at all costs. Good luck to both teams.

+1 for Male.

Manual kept them honest though. 30-23 win for the Bulldogs.

Wonderful topic and thread.  Thank you for a very interesting read! 

On 10/24/2023 at 7:31 PM, Colonels_Wear_Blue said:

So reading the article, Male had two touchdowns without successfully kicking the goal after to convert (2 x 4 = 12pts) and one touchdown with a successfully kicked goal to convert (1 x 6 = 6pts). So that gives Male 6pts + 8pts.

Historical Scoring in Gridiron Football

Era	Touchdown	Goal-From-Field a.k.a. Field Goal	Goal-From-Touchdown a.k.a. PAT Kick	PAT Conversion *	Safety	Conversion Safety **	Defensive Conversion ***
1883	2	5	4	–	1	–	–
1883–1897	4	5	2	–	2	–	–
1898–1903	5	5	1	–	2	–	–
1904–1908	5	4	1	–	2	–	–
1909–1911	5	3	1	–	2	–	–
1912–1957	6	3	1	–	2	–	–
1958–present	6	3	1	2	2	1

Just awesome research and write-up.  ?Just wondering if the math (2 X 4 = 12 pts) is Common Core or “Park Hills “ countin??