I agree...but you need to work on your math...it's $55.00 per game, no gas money, no pay for wear and tear on your vehicle, you must be at game site one hour before scheduled game time, you may have to travel 50 to 100 miles, so add this time...oh yea, lets not forget the cost of uniforms etc...

 

Now do the math and see how close to minimum wage you get.:eek:

 

Do you get paid gas money, wear and tear on your vehicle, or your clothes for work paid for? Not to many people do. My point was simply that most nights in High School girl's basketball especially with a 3 person crew, the school is in the "hole". I am sure that the coaches and administrators of these schools would like to see whoever it is that they are paying to do the job, perform it well and be trained/prepared for the job they are getting paid for. Like any job, you should be properly trained and prepared BEFORE you show up for work, let's remember that this is a JOB, not a HOBBY.

The training is where the shortfall is. More is needed and year end reviews need completed. You know whether it will be a good game or a brawl when you see which officials walk on the floor at the beginning. The good ones keep the game under control.

For what it is worth, I always have felt that the officials in the Bluegrass Association (serves the 10th and 11th regions and supervised by Rick Chasteen) are the best officials in the state. Yes, I have disagreed with calls but for the most part they do a good job.

 

I find it interesting that players are not expected to make every shot or never turn the ball over. Coaches make calls/substitions that sometimes don't work. BUT officials are NEVER supposed to err.

 

They are held to a standard even higher than Christians in this country. Never supposed to make a mistake.

 

No offense--but find me a coach that doesn't coach his team/players to execute perfectly--and I will show you a coach that doesn't have a job. Find me a coach who doesn't try to make perfect decisions, adjustments, etc ............ again--I will show you a coach that doesn't have a job.

 

And--when those coaches (and players) do make mistakes--you can bet they hear about it more than any official (with you being a coach--I figured that this was something that you understood). They (coaches/players) get a LOT more negative attention than any official that I have ever seen or heard.

 

The last time I checked--it is part of an officials job to be perfect. And anyone that doesn't demand that type of perfection probably isn't paying very good attention.

 

I just don't get it with the official's pity party that we are having here ....... I agree that there is no need to be abusive. Heck--my personal rule that I live by is that once a game starts--I don't talk to the officials unless they say something to me that is game related (I like to stay focused on the game--and the things that I can control).

 

But seriously--55.00 for 2 or 3 hours? Are you kidding me? There are plenty of people who would like to make that kind of money. I know that for a fact that after the season is over--that 18.00 to 20.00 an hour--significantly more than what I end up with if I judge it per hour (and I consider my coaching salary to be decent).

 

Again--if they don't like what they are signing up for--that is their problem. They ARE supposed to be perfect. And when they are not--they should have to deal with the consquences. Now--I don't think that means that they should be screamed at--or humiliated--but they need to be held accountable. Right now--I don't think they are. And they know/love that going in ......

The training is where the shortfall is. More is needed and year end reviews need completed. You know whether it will be a good game or a brawl when you see which officials walk on the floor at the beginning. The good ones keep the game under control.

 

You are exactly right. The training is the shortfall because the Head of the Officials knows less then most officials. The Head of the Officials needs to be re-evaluated every year by the higher authorities and held accountable somewhat for the official assignments and improving the overall officiating in the 16th Region.

 

With out strong leadership in any job, no one improves.

No offense--but find me a coach that doesn't coach his team/players to execute perfectly--and I will show you a coach that doesn't have a job. Find me a coach who doesn't try to make perfect decisions, adjustments, etc ............ again--I will show you a coach that doesn't have a job.

 

And--when those coaches (and players) do make mistakes--you can bet they hear about it more than any official (with you being a coach--I figured that this was something that you understood). They (coaches/players) get a LOT more negative attention than any official that I have ever seen or heard.

 

The last time I checked--it is part of an officials job to be perfect. And anyone that doesn't demand that type of perfection probably isn't paying very good attention.

 

I just don't get it with the official's pity party that we are having here ....... I agree that there is no need to be abusive. Heck--my personal rule that I live by is that once a game starts--I don't talk to the officials unless they say something to me that is game related (I like to stay focused on the game--and the things that I can control).

 

But seriously--55.00 for 2 or 3 hours? Are you kidding me? There are plenty of people who would like to make that kind of money. I know that for a fact that after the season is over--that 18.00 to 20.00 an hour--significantly more than what I end up with if I judge it per hour (and I consider my coaching salary to be decent).

 

Again--if they don't like what they are signing up for--that is their problem. They ARE supposed to be perfect. And when they are not--they should have to deal with the consquences. Now--I don't think that means that they should be screamed at--or humiliated--but they need to be held accountable. Right now--I don't think they are. And they know/love that going in ......

I bolded and enlarged the key word in your first paragraph. Try, yes. Always works out that way and no.

 

Do you think Marvin is at fault because the extra point was not made by the Bengals on Sunday?

Quickslick, I don't consider this a pity party, more a respect people party. If there are PLENTY of people who whould like to make "that kind of money" why is it that associations are always looking for officials? Also, where did you find that it is part of an official's job to be PERFECT. Be realistic, an official couldn't be perfect because there are always 2 teams involved and they would never both agree with every call. You state players and coaches TRY to be perfect: what makes you think officials don't try to be perfect. You think they make bad calls on purpose? No more than players try to miss free throws. We live in an imperfect world, so why should sports be any different. By the way, they ARE held accountable. You probably haven't noticed but there are evaluators at games throughout the season, and you as a coach are an evaluator by giving feedback through the 5 scratches you are entitled to and your annual ranking of officials you submit. That is what determines which officials you get. If officials work a lot of games it is because coaches are rating them high and not scratching them.

Most officials don't have a complaint with coaches, it is the "know nothing" goofballs in the stands who don't even know the rules who are usually the loudest and most abusive. All officials are asking for is respect and decency from poeple. No more than you expect from your players and parents.

Quickslick, I don't consider this a pity party, more a respect people party. If there are PLENTY of people who whould like to make "that kind of money" why is it that associations are always looking for officials? Also, where did you find that it is part of an official's job to be PERFECT. Be realistic, an official couldn't be perfect because there are always 2 teams involved and they would never both agree with every call. You state players and coaches TRY to be perfect: what makes you think officials don't try to be perfect. You think they make bad calls on purpose? No more than players try to miss free throws. We live in an imperfect world, so why should sports be any different. By the way, they ARE held accountable. You probably haven't noticed but there are evaluators at games throughout the season, and you as a coach are an evaluator by giving feedback through the 5 scratches you are entitled to and your annual ranking of officials you submit. That is what determines which officials you get. If officials work a lot of games it is because coaches are rating them high and not scratching them.

Most officials don't have a complaint with coaches, it is the "know nothing" goofballs in the stands who don't even know the rules who are usually the loudest and most abusive. All officials are asking for is respect and decency from poeple. No more than you expect from your players and parents.

 

Well said!

 

When I started this thread, these were pretty much my thoughts. I was tired of hearing all the whining from people who know very little about what it is to be an official (or very little about the rules and the game for that matter).

 

And for those who can do better? That is why I included the link to the officials application. Sign up and do a few "perfect games" and make "that kind of money" and your praises will be sung mightily here on BGP!

I think that for the most part the Referees that have worked in the 8th Region do a pretty good job.... however, there is always an exception! When she enters the gym everyone knows it is going to be a lopsided called game. The good news is you never know who she will favor.

 

I watched a game the other night that she ref'd and I found myself cheering for the team she so obviously was calling against and I was not really for either team.

 

I would like to think that someone reviews her performance and gives her advice but so far she has been really entertaining with some of her calls. My favorite was bear hug...I had to scratch my head on that one.

It is certainly easy to criticize all officials, they have a tough job and make split second decisions. I feel for the most part the Bluegrass Basketball Association (10th and 11th regions) is as good an association as there is in the entire state. Every association has their clowns and every association has their mid-level guys and every association has their studs, it is a fact of life!

I bolded and enlarged the key word in your first paragraph. Try, yes. Always works out that way and no.

 

Do you think Marvin is at fault because the extra point was not made by the Bengals on Sunday?

 

As a football coach--I absolutely consider it to be Marvin's fault. (Among others). And if he wouldn't take responsibility for it-- what kind of a coach would he be?

 

As a head coach--I would be very comfortable saying that Marvin probably feels like it was his fault--because HIS team should have never been in that position to begin with. (Don't just think about the play in question--but think about why that play became so important .... 3 turnovers that resulted in scores, etc ..... it all goes back to the head coach).

 

When you are the head coach--the BUCK STOPS WITH YOU. Not to mention the fact that the play in question looked to me like something that could be coached too.

 

I have been lucky enough to learn that though process from my parents ..... and one of the best football coaches in the history of this state. That person made it very apparent to me that there is always something that you could have coached to (directly or indirectly) that could have changed the outcome of a particular situation. And there are way too many officials who are way too busy trying to become part of the outcome ...... that kind of official deserves anything that he/she gets (within reason).

Quickslick, I don't consider this a pity party, more a respect people party. If there are PLENTY of people who whould like to make "that kind of money" why is it that associations are always looking for officials? Also, where did you find that it is part of an official's job to be PERFECT. Be realistic, an official couldn't be perfect because there are always 2 teams involved and they would never both agree with every call. You state players and coaches TRY to be perfect: what makes you think officials don't try to be perfect. You think they make bad calls on purpose? No more than players try to miss free throws. We live in an imperfect world, so why should sports be any different. By the way, they ARE held accountable. You probably haven't noticed but there are evaluators at games throughout the season, and you as a coach are an evaluator by giving feedback through the 5 scratches you are entitled to and your annual ranking of officials you submit. That is what determines which officials you get. If officials work a lot of games it is because coaches are rating them high and not scratching them.

Most officials don't have a complaint with coaches, it is the "know nothing" goofballs in the stands who don't even know the rules who are usually the loudest and most abusive. All officials are asking for is respect and decency from poeple. No more than you expect from your players and parents.

 

You may not be saying it directly--but don't assume that I don't have respect for officials. If you know me personally--or have seen me in action--that is one thing.

 

But to nail this down further ... I believe that there are some very good officials. But there are also some very bad officials. The good ones deserve all the respect in the world. The bad ones don't deserve a whole lot of anything.

 

Also--I am not sure which part of the state you are in--but there isn't a huge shortage of officials across the state. In certain areas ... yes. But I don't get the feeling that there is an overall shortage (I could be wrong about that one).

 

If officials are not supposed to be perfect--then what is the point of even having them? There would be no point. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for mistakes. But they are not paid to make mistakes. And don't try to justify it by saying that they "try" to be perfect. That is bull. They need to try a little harder.

 

As far as evaluators go .... sorry. From personal experience--I would say that may be one of the more corrupt professions that I have seen. Often times--they are being evaluated by one of their buddies/friends. And--there are many times where I these guys take up for each other--even when you have documented evidence (video) that proves how wrong they were. Seriously--how hard is it to say "I made a mistake--I will try to learn from it next time" ..... but instead--they cover up for each other and live in a world of make believe.

 

As far as scratching bad officials ..... I have always been under the impression that I shouldn't have to scratch anyone. If they are that bad--they shouldn't be an official. Not to mention the fact that there is still a chance down the line (in a playoff or higher level game) that I am still going to come across this person. Then ....... I you may as well accept the fact that you are not going to get a fairly called game at all (which stinks because the stakes are higher in games where officials are "assigned")

 

As far as the fans go ...... I agree with your statements there--simply because we get to see some very similar treatment. The problem is--there are a lot of parents/spectators who are so involved with what their kids are doing--that they have worked hard to become more educated. Meaning--there are a lot of fans who know the rules just as well as the refs/coaches do now a days. And worse--they learn those rules for the specific reason of questioning poor performance by a coach or a referee.

 

I just don't buy the argument (from some) that it is a thankless profession and that referees automatically deserve some high level of respect. Or, that they are not paid enough, etc, etc. As always--respect is earned--not handed out at the ice cream parlor. And honestly--there are way to many who walk out on the court, or on the field--and project an image that they are there to control the game--as opposed to managing the game. At this point--I think that there are a lot more refs like that--than good ones who handle things the right way.

I think that for the most part the Referees that have worked in the 8th Region do a pretty good job.... however, there is always an exception! When she enters the gym everyone knows it is going to be a lopsided called game. The good news is you never know who she will favor.

 

I watched a game the other night that she ref'd and I found myself cheering for the team she so obviously was calling against and I was not really for either team.

 

I would like to think that someone reviews her performance and gives her advice but so far she has been really entertaining with some of her calls. My favorite was bear hug...I had to scratch my head on that one.

 

I agree with the bolded part. I feel that the 8th region officials do a fairly good job. There are a few that I groan to see, mostly because they let coaches or players get out of control and you can see that there will be issues during the game.

 

However, I only know of one female official that calls very much (in our area of the 8th region, anyway). While she may not be my favorite, I have not noticed her being for or against any team. She knows the rules and enforces them.

There were 3 female officials last night in the NAS tournament. Maybe you have not come up against her yet. She calls mostly in Northern KY. around Grant, W-Town and Walton Area.

 

The other 2 were great and I thought they did a great job! I agree I hate to see games get out of control. There is no reason for anyone to get hurt and play with unnecessary roughness.

Well, being an ex official I could make a few comments to every post, but I will generalize them in the following ways:

 

1) Most of your so called "good" officials in any association work a higher level of ball. To accomplish this, many of them have attended camp (no not the local camp that their supervisor puts on, but a national camp with people from all over including overseas). So saying that some are not well trained at what they do is inaccurate.

 

2) We are all held accountable for what we do (or did in my case; well, all is not accurate either, it depends on the supervisor of the respective association). I know friends that have lost games in the past due to blown rules. College officials are under even more of a microscope. Tapes of games are sent regularly to supervisors if there are problems in a game.

 

3) There is no way to get two (or three) good officials on all games. The best of the best get the best games of the night and then the supervisors have to go from there. People in the business have to be able to learn from mistakes. Keep making the same mistakes and out one goes.

 

4) Yes, some officials have to "be the game" and call things that are out of reach for them. Ego trips are common in the business. I always tell the people I train (trained) don't think you saw something. Know you saw it. Even more so in a three person system; someone has a look at the play. Three lets you not have to guess at certain calls that you had to in two person.

 

 

5) As to the scratching post above....coaches hold grudges far more often than officials do. I wouldn't care if I had tossed a coach three nights before, he/she got a fresh start the next game. So as for certain people being "corrupt", I have a real problem with that wording. Officials don't do this for money (unless you do if for your main income), so saying we would hold something against a person/team for prestige or recognition is also an incorrect statement.

 

6) Get your moneys worth. I never let a crowd get to me back in "the day". If yelling at us keeps you from doing so to your wife/GF/mistress or going home and kicking your dog, go for it. Just keep it clean.

 

:dancingpa

Well, being an ex official I could make a few comments to every post, but I will generalize them in the following ways:

 

1) Most of your so called "good" officials in any association work a higher level of ball. To accomplish this, many of them have attended camp (no not the local camp that their supervisor puts on, but a national camp with people from all over including overseas). So saying that some are not well trained at what they do is inaccurate.

2) We are all held accountable for what we do (or did in my case; well, all is not accurate either, it depends on the supervisor of the respective association). I know friends that have lost games in the past due to blown rules. College officials are under even more of a microscope. Tapes of games are sent regularly to supervisors if there are problems in a game.

 

3) There is no way to get two (or three) good officials on all games. The best of the best get the best games of the night and then the supervisors have to go from there. People in the business have to be able to learn from mistakes. Keep making the same mistakes and out one goes.

 

4) Yes, some officials have to "be the game" and call things that are out of reach for them. Ego trips are common in the business. I always tell the people I train (trained) don't think you saw something. Know you saw it. Even more so in a three person system; someone has a look at the play. Three lets you not have to guess at certain calls that you had to in two person.

 

 

5) As to the scratching post above....coaches hold grudges far more often than officials do. I wouldn't care if I had tossed a coach three nights before, he/she got a fresh start the next game. So as for certain people being "corrupt", I have a real problem with that wording. Officials don't do this for money (unless you do if for your main income), so saying we would hold something against a person/team for prestige or recognition is also an incorrect statement.

 

6) Get your moneys worth. I never let a crowd get to me back in "the day". If yelling at us keeps you from doing so to your wife/GF/mistress or going home and kicking your dog, go for it. Just keep it clean.

 

:dancingpa

Excellent post:thumb:

But I hope that you meant that "not all are well trained is inaccurate." From what I gather from your post, only some, or few for that matter, are "trained at a higher level than local clinics, etc." I wish there was a way to allow the whole of officials to be trained at a higher level. I'm sure that costs may be prohibitive, etc. Perhaps that is unrealistic! Not intended to be a slam on officials, just that if they were afforded higher level training, perhaps the quality would be even greater.