Congressman to use Koran at swearing-in

[02Ram54]

I believe the fact that a muslim CAN have a koran along with a place to congregate without discrimination in this country is what separates us. Try carrying your Holy Bible to your Sunday Worship at a Baptist Church in a muslim country, it won't happen. That's the difference I see. I will never believe that our founding fathers intended for it to be this way. The professional politicians, liberal supreme court justices beginning in the sixty's along with big business and lobbyist's running our govt has almost doomed what our founding fathers had in mind. My big pink ears are already burning.

There are plenty of Christian churches in Egypt, Lebannon, and other predominantly Muslim countries.

[02Ram54]

The evil ACLU has really hurt America.

Nothing to do with this.

[02Ram54]

Again, everyone that think that they know what the Founding Father's universally thought about the Bible had better think again. Because there was certainly no consensus on Jefferson's part. Ever hear of the Jefferson Bible?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

 

The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was an attempt by Thomas Jefferson to glean the teachings of Jesus from the Christian Gospels. Jefferson wished to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists.

Prior to the Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, Jefferson made an earlier abstraction of the words of Jesus entitled "The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth," the purpose of which he mentions in a letter to John Adams dated 13 October 1813:

In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to

strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves.

We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurgos, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. [1]

Jefferson frequently expressed discontent with this earlier version, however. The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth represents the fulfillment of his desire to produce a more carefully assembled edition.

 

 

 

Jefferson arranged selected verses from the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in chronological order, mingling excerpts from one next to those of another in order to create a single narrative. Thus he begins with Luke 2 and Luke 3, then follows with Mark 1 and Matthew 3. He provides a record of which verses he selected and of the order in which he arranged them in his "Table of the Texts from the Evangelists employed in this Narrative and of the order of their arrangement."

 

 

Miracles and references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus are notably absent from the Jefferson Bible. The Bible begins with an account of Jesus's birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. The work ends with the words: "Now, in the place where he was crucified, there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus. And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed." There is no mention of the resurrection, just like in the earliest manuscripts of Mark.

 

Anyone ready to make an appeal to authority with that in mind?

[SKINPIG]

Again, everyone that think that they know what the Founding Father's universally thought about the Bible had better think again. Because there was certainly no consensus on Jefferson's part. Ever hear of the Jefferson Bible?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

 

 

 

Anyone ready to make an appeal to authority with that in mind?

 

Think again???? Hey, I'm just choosing to believe in what I posted. You can choose to believe in what you read and post also. That's another great thing about this country. I'm not saying I'm right, just saying that's how I choose to believe...Not trying to change any minds on here. Are you saying the way you read all this stuff is right? We can all read something and interpret it differently. Jefferson was one of many.

[SKINPIG]

There are plenty of Christian churches in Egypt, Lebannon, and other predominantly Muslim countries.

 

Yes there are, but you know what I mean. You can get your head cut off for worshiping as a Christian in some places.

[Habib]

There are plenty of Christian churches in Egypt, Lebannon, and other predominantly Muslim countries.

 

I think something like 10-15% of Arabs, or the population of Arab countries, are Christians...I'll have to double check though.

[Frances Bavier]

... You can get your head cut off for worshiping as a Christian in some places.

 

You're exactly right Skinpig. Of course, you can be vilified and demonized for honoring your holy book if you're a Muslim in some places, too....

 

 

Frances

[AHSPanther23]

Has anyone before him used a different "Good Book"?

[Brewsky]

AMERICA IS GREAT BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE THE FREEDOM OF RELIGION!

 

This is not a country that persecutes a man/woman because of her religion.

 

This IS the land of the free!

 

I respect this, even if it is not the "majority view" because America is not a nation that always yields to the majority view, it is a nation that respects the beliefs of its citizens.

 

If the people believed in a Muslim Congressman to represent them, I think that is the beauty of Democracy at work.

[Habib]

Is it even required to use something to swear in on? I don't think anyone is making anyone use a Bible?

[ladiesbballcoach]

Again, everyone that think that they know what the Founding Father's universally thought about the Bible had better think again. Because there was certainly no consensus on Jefferson's part. Ever hear of the Jefferson Bible?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

 

 

 

Anyone ready to make an appeal to authority with that in mind?

My understanding was that Jefferson did this at the END OF HIS LIFE, rather when he was in the midst of helping sit up this country.

[Hatz]

With the help of a friend, I have the following information to offer.

 

Contrary to modern thought and America’s re-written history, this country was founded by and with deep religious conviction. The founders of this nation intended for God to guide and build this democracy.

 

During the Constitutional Convention, George Washington stated that this event “is in the hands of God!”

 

On June 28, 1787, the Constitutional Convention was on the verge of complete rupture. In an unusual event, the 81 year old, Dr. Benjamin Franklin asked for permission to speak. “I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that ‘except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it (Psalms 127:1).’ I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel….I therefore beg leave to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessing on our deliberation be held in this assembly every morning…and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.” And to this very day we still have clergy open the legislature with prayer.

 

On the first inauguration of our first President, George Washington, we see that Washington took the oath of President with his hand on the Holy Bible. The Bible was actually opened to Deuteronomy 28, which promises blessings or curses on a nation according to its faithfulness to keep God’s Word. At the end of his oath he said, “So help me God” and then he leaned over and kissed the Bible. Every President since Washington has repeated this same process.

 

Around September 25, 1789, after the first Congress proposed a Bill of Rights, President Washington issued a proclamation to the people. The thanked “the great Lord and Ruler of Nations” for enabling us “to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted.” He said it is “the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

 

Thomas Jefferson said that religion is “deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support…The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty;…students perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens.”

 

The First Amendment does not guarantee freedom from religion and a secular state, but freedom of religion and a truly non-denominational Christian state. It guaranteed that the “Spirit of the Constitution” would be forever free to flourish as the foundation of our Republic.

 

I think that in 1864 it was sworn into law that the Holy Bible be used when swearing in elected officials of US Govt.

 

You can find more information like this in the book, America’s Providential History by Mark A. Beliles and Stephen K. McDowell. Providence Press.

 

Therefore I still believe that our founding fathers will roll over in their graves if the koran is used to swear this guy in as a congressman.

 

 

Where to begin?

 

The recommendation by Franklin was made (we won't go into Franklin's actually living what most would call an orthodox Christian life. ). Yet it is noted in James Madison's notes that the recommendation brought dissension and debate over that very notion of prayer. (James Madison, Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787)

 

The Convention passed a resolution by Edmund Randolph to hold special services on the 4th of July where prayers could be offered. Franklin seconded that motion and later acknowledged that the Convention except for 3 or 4 persons thought prayer unneccessary.

 

Lewis Morris of NY (who also sat in on the committe of the Declaration) stated "Reason tells us we are but men, and we are not to expect any particular interference from heaven in our favor." (IBID, James Madision notes)

 

In fact, your discussion of the hiring of a chaplain was much later and not at the time of the Constitutional Convention. (See Mark Whitten, The Myth of Christian America, p. 41) In fact at no time were there any official prayers offered in the Constitutional Convention. In a first run of seperation the service offered by Edmund Randolph was held on July 4th seperate from the Convention.

 

The Chaplaincy System was not brought into being until 1789. Here's some info on that and a website:

 

James Madison was a member of the committee of the First Congress which planned the Chaplaincy system in 1789, even though he claims that he opposed such a system at that time. (See Chief Justice Burger. I Would Like You to Meet Mr. Madison. ) In his recently published Detached Memoranda, (the manuscript was discovered in 1946 and published in 1950. See Excerpts from Madison's Detached Memoranda.) Madison definitely came out against the system. He asked whether the fact that the Chaplains were paid by "the nation" did not involve the principle of establishment forbidden by the Bill of Rights, and also whether, since some groups like Catholics and Quakers could scarcely be elected to the office, the provision of chaplains by a majority vote were not a palpable violation of civil rights and unfair to minorities." (Church and State in the United States Vol I page 456, by Anson Phelps Stokes)

 

http://candst.tripod.com/chaptest.htm

 

 

The quote from Jefferson does not appear in any primary source documents written by Jefferson or by a contemporary who heard him say this. Check it out in the Jefferson Library: http://www.monticello.org/library/reference/quotes.html#topic.

 

Tell me if you find it because scholars can't.

 

As I've alluded to already the First Amendment is a guarantee that there is no endorsement of religion by the government and no interference of religion by the government. It provides for "free exercise" but not "free permission to prostelytize" with aid from the government. That's my take on the matter and I think that is what the original writers (primarily Madison) had in mind.

 

When you accuse people of revising history you might want to go back and check primary sources before believing what someone writes that is secondary.

 

I think the truth is that this nation was founded by a mix of people. Some were devout Christians but few were evangelicals as we know them. Most were Anglicans and Congregationalists. But almost all were driven by their age - their Age of Enlightenment. This was the time when humanity felt an endowment of Liberty like the world had not seen and it would be replicated in places like France. (Though much more violently and extremely)

 

While many of these men were Christians that does not mean they set out to create a Theocracy but instead chose a Republic model that protected liberty above all.

[Hatz]

My understanding was that Jefferson did this at the END OF HIS LIFE, rather when he was in the midst of helping sit up this country.

 

 

He began somewhere just outside of the Presidency I believe around 1810 or so. There is mention of it in a letter to John Adams in 1813 when they were healing their relationship.

 

I know the point you are trying to get at about Jefferson's faith but the truth is he was a Deist at best (God exists but is unconcerned with the affairs of men and usually they do not hold to deity for Jesus) and unbeliever at worst. The early death of his beloved wife Martha scarred him but his faith or lack of it, was typical through his life.

 

Here is an interesting short article from PBS about it.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/jefferson.html

[Hatz]

Yes there are, but you know what I mean. You can get your head cut off for worshiping as a Christian in some places.

 

 

Your not far off. While some Arab countries like Egypt and Kuwait and Lebanon are more church friendly they aren't a welcoming bunch either.

 

You can get arrested in Egypt for openly seeking to convert a Muslim to Christianity. Lebanon is the most Christian friendly country if you can call her Arab.

 

Some places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan and Pakistan are extremely dangerous to be a Christian who is looking for converts.

 

That's why the liberty in this country is so precious. We can't act like others, we have to model true freedom and liberty for all (even those with whom we disagree).

[Hatz]

Think again???? Hey, I'm just choosing to believe in what I posted. You can choose to believe in what you read and post also. That's another great thing about this country. I'm not saying I'm right, just saying that's how I choose to believe...Not trying to change any minds on here. Are you saying the way you read all this stuff is right? We can all read something and interpret it differently. Jefferson was one of many.

 

 

As I pointed out in the other posts, you can believe what you wish to. Just don't attempt to use poor history to back it up. Use primary sources (and there are some out there) to back up your point. :thumb: