Congressman to use Koran at swearing-in

[SKINPIG]

Frances & Habib. Please excuse my ignorance on this subject. I grew up in an area and time where prayer and pledges were an every day part of not only school, but life. 35 years ago topics like these were few and far between. 35 years ago our schools/government didn't have the problems they are having now. I know, I know, yes they had problems, but not as drastic as now. Do you think there may be a connection? Sometimes I wonder.

 

Our country, right or wrong, has used the Holy Bible to swear in with from day one. I just don't think it's a good idea to turn away from it now or ever.

[Frances Bavier]

Frances & Habib. Please excuse my ignorance on this subject. I grew up in an area and time where prayer and pledges were an every day part of not only school, but life. 35 years ago topics like these were few and far between. 35 years ago our schools/government didn't have the problems they are having now. I know, I know, yes they had problems, but not as drastic as now. Do you think there may be a connection? Sometimes I wonder.

 

Our country, right or wrong, has used the Holy Bible to swear in with from day one. I just don't think it's a good idea to turn away from it now or ever.

 

Skinpig -

 

You are not "ignorant" in this matter, and there is nothing to excuse. Like all of us, you have an opinion, and you are entitled to it. The entire point of having a "P&R" forum on this site is so that we can discuss issues such as this.

 

On some issues, we all seem to be very intransigent, and unwilling to look at the position taken by others.

 

Hopefully, on most issues, we discuss them with open minds, and are willing to explore what the other person has to say.

 

Occassionally (but probably not often enough), we might be exposed to a viewpoint that causes us to rethink our own positions.

 

When we see issues that address our faith or our political beliefs, it is not uncommon to have a "kneejerk" reaction, and take a position without giving it a lot of thought.

 

You do not need to apologize for any position you take - none of us do. We should, however, be able to defend our positions with intelligent reasoning and rational thought, or be willing to reconsider our stance on any given issue.

 

 

Frances

[Hatz]

Frances & Habib. Please excuse my ignorance on this subject. I grew up in an area and time where prayer and pledges were an every day part of not only school, but life. 35 years ago topics like these were few and far between. 35 years ago our schools/government didn't have the problems they are having now. I know, I know, yes they had problems, but not as drastic as now. Do you think there may be a connection? Sometimes I wonder.

 

Our country, right or wrong, has used the Holy Bible to swear in with from day one. I just don't think it's a good idea to turn away from it now or ever.

 

 

And 45 years ago much of the south was still segregated. Good thing they swore on their Bible to keep their office.

 

I don't know if you can get more drastic than the Civil Rights Movement in this country.

[Frances Bavier]

... He is Jewish, he has said that it is not for the religious significance of the Bible that he objects, rather the traditional use of the bible. [/Quote] Like each of us, Dennis Prager is entitled to his opinion. Personally, I think he is completely missing the point of using the Bible when someone takes an oath. I could be wrong, but I believe that when a witness is sworn in during a trial, they may use any text that they wish - or none at all.

 

 

Jews have in fact been sworn in on Bibles containing the New Testement as have people who are avowed athiests. [/Quote] I am curious - have we ever had an avowed atheist serve in Congress? I'm not being smarmy, I truly don't know the answer to that question.

 

 

... It only seems to have become an issue when the first Muslim is to be sworn in and I find that offensive.

I would submit that it only became an issue when someone saw a potential political advantage to be gained, when no issue really exists.

 

 

 

Frances

[Hatz]

I'm no history expert but, surely you would agree that our founding fathers did not intend for the koran to be used while swearing in a member of congress. Surely you would agree that our founding fathers intended for our children to pray (as they knew praying to be) in school. Surely you would agree that our founding fathers intended for our children to pledge their country. I'm not sayng that I'm right, I'm saying that the way we bicker these days over religion and rights is just what they were tring to avoid IMO.

 

 

1. No, some would have wanted no Bible at a swearing in ceremony. As for which Bible would be a good discussion. Jefferson tore his up and repasted the gospel he saw as what was important. (literally) Check out a book entitled "Jefferson's Gospel."

 

2. I've not seen a school where no child could pray. They just can't pray audibly or with the intent of prostelyzing during school time. (BTW, read Matthew 6 again about what Jesus thought prayer should be.)

 

3. No, the founding fathers would not have intended any kind of pledge for our children. The Pledge of Allegiance was not penned until the late 19th century, almost 130 years after Independence. It was also written by a Baptist Pastor who was trying to come up with a way to instill civic duty and appreciation for America in young people. (It seems he was troubled with the way the youth of his day were not committed to the American Dream) He did not write the phrase "under God." He wrote: "One nation, indivisible" ( a clear reference to the Civil War generation).

The phrase "under God" was added by an act of Congress in 1954 during the height of the Cold War. So our founding fathers would have known nothing about that.

 

4. Our Founding Fathers very much bickered over relgion and rights. They didn't avoid it at all. There were some who pushed for naming a religion and established church much as Europe had. In fact the colonies all had a state endorsed church except for Pennsylvania (thank you William Penn) and Rhode Island (hats off to Roger Williams). In Virginia it was the Anglican Church that received tax monies for support. It was also there that they were beating up Baptists as late as the 1770's. It wasn't until Jefferson pushed through the Religious Liberty Amendment in VA that there was true religious liberty here. The First Amendment was pushed by James Madison, backed by a bunch of Liberty loving Baptists with the intent of not naming any religion greater than the other.

 

 

Skinpig, you said you were no history expert. There's no crime in that. But it does strike me how many people know so little about the origins of our Religious History and Liberty in this country.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Extremely well said. This is exactly why America is as strong as it is.

 

No one - absolutely no one - can dictate what any of us believes, thinks, or says. It is our right to openly dissent, to express our views, and to be heard at the ballot box that guarantees (among other things) our right to worship as we see fit.

 

Those rights were paid for with the blood of many Americans - representing every race, the Christian faith, the Jewish faith, the Muslim faith, agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, etc.

 

 

Frances

I am not sure the bolded is accurate.

[ladiesbballcoach]

This will probably surprise some people but with our country as is, I don't have a problem with it.

 

Reason being, this is not God's country. We shy away from God as a country. We run from him and put our "rights" above God. In this country, it is more important to have rights that some group of men, simply MEN, have given us on a piece of paper rather than what the Creator of Everything asks.

 

While undoubtedly this is the best country on this planet, it pales in comparison to God's family.

[Frances Bavier]

... Skinpig, you said you were no history expert. There's no crime in that. But it does strike me how many people know so little about the origins of our Religious History and Liberty in this country.

 

Hatz -

 

First, let me say that I am continually amazed at how well informed you are, and how much I learn from your posts on this issue. I consider myself to be semi-intelligent, yet I realize that there are many issues of which I am almost totally ignorant.

 

Your last sentence is written to all of us in general, but it is very applicable to me.

 

I can't speak for the others, but personally, I really get a kick out of watching you address this, for two reasons:

1) You are obviously very well read in this area, and you communicate your knowledge clearly and succinctly.

2) Many members of the clergy mistakenly argue against the separation of church and state, due to (in my opinion) a wish to have their own religion installed as the state religion. As you are a member of that fraternity, your voice carries great weight, when you recognize the need for our country to NEVER have a state religion.

 

My hat is off to you, Hatz.

 

 

Frances

[Frances Bavier]

I am not sure the bolded is accurate.

 

That would probably be a good thread to start, LBBC.

 

 

"What gives America it's strength?"

 

 

 

Frances

[Hatz]

I am not sure the bolded is accurate.

 

 

I am. :thumb:

 

I will take liberty of conscience any day of the week over a government propped conviction. I think History and the Bible supports such.

[ladiesbballcoach]

That would probably be a good thread to start, LBBC.

 

 

"What gives America it's strength?"

 

 

 

Frances

I will look for it.:thumb:

 

But my view is that America is losing it's strength rapidly. And it doesn't have an iota to do with GW and Iraq. But the lack of responsibility, morals and heartfelt compassion in this country.

[Frances Bavier]

...Reason being, this is not God's country. We shy away from God as a country. We run from him and put our "rights" above God. In this country, it is more important to have rights that some group of men, simply MEN, have given us on a piece of paper rather than what the Creator of Everything asks.

 

While undoubtedly this is the best country on this planet, it pales in comparison to God's family.

 

Since God does not come to us with a political system and a country, the ideas of men are all we have with which to build our model. We may use blunt tools when compared to God, but we do the best we can.

 

For my money, our system of government could stand a significant amount of improvement, but comparatively speaking, we certainly appear to be at the head of the pack.

 

 

 

Frances

[ladiesbballcoach]

I am. :thumb:

 

I will take liberty of conscience any day of the week over a government propped conviction. I think History and the Bible supports such.

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I am NOT in favor of a state supported Christianity. I DON'T think that is biblically or a good idea in any way, shape or form.

 

I also don't think America is as strong as it once was. So many of the ideas and work ethic that made this country great has fallen by the wayside. One example, it used to be the American dream to work hard and earn your own home. Now our government has setup up ways for anyone to have one and the "work hard" part has gone by the wayside.

 

Our country has moved from "earning" our rights to "demanding things that are not necessarily our "rights" but we think they are.

 

We have moved away from "working hard" to screaming and yelling about injustices until we get what we want without having to put in any hard work.

(BTW, before any of the P & P people jump on me, it doesn't matter how hard most public/rural schools work, they still won't be able to compete on an annual basis with private/urban schools. )

[ladiesbballcoach]

Since God does not come to us with a political system and a country, the ideas of men are all we have with which to build our model. We may use blunt tools when compared to God, but we do the best we can.

 

For my money, our system of government could stand a significant amount of improvement, but comparatively speaking, we certainly appear to be at the head of the pack.

 

Frances

As I said, our country is the best out there. And God has shown us a mindset that is better than all others. Put others' needs first. We don't do that in this country. It is more about how many bathrooms I can have in my house than it is about how many unfortunate I can help.

[Frances Bavier]

As I said, our country is the best out there. And God has shown us a mindset that is better than all others. Put others' needs first. We don't do that in this country. It is more about how many bathrooms I can have in my house than it is about how many unfortunate I can help.

 

I had to double check to see if this was written by Acemona.

 

 

Frances