Yes teams were able to do that more and also still able to stop teams more than the Bengals defense and also let teams score less than the Bengals defense. Shoot the Bengals defense back then also sucked at pressuring the qb unlike the defense during most of Daltons time. The 2005 defense did a good job creating turnovers and that is even a little misleading since they created 15 turnovers in 3 games. However when that 2005 was unable to create a turnover they weren't able to stop anyone.

 

It's not even close man. Even the stats don't support your argument lol. Don't be like my old pal Hellbird, who would argue even when stats say otherwise. Which is probably why I am discussing this so much with you. Without him on here I have no one to debate with and it gets boring now lol.

 

That's actually a big part of it... I know you miss Hellbird.

What happened to Hellbird?

That's my problem with Palmer... They only won twice in 7 seasons with him at QB...

 

He sat his rookie year and Kitna went 8-8. Palmer's first year after sitting, watching and learning...the Bengals go 8-8.

 

Dalton with no seasoned QB to learn from took a 4-12 team to a 9-7 playoff birth his rookie year... 9-7 happens to be his worst season yet unless the wheels fall off this year.

 

Palmer had a 4-12 year... You mentioned Terrell Owens... That's Palmer's fault... I happen to have a little inside info although it's quite public now.... Palmer fought hard for TO to be there. He wanted TO and literally got into heated battles with coaches and upper management about TO... That's on him.

 

Heck, after he quit the Bengals and "retired" he was throwing to TO and TJ Housh in Cali to stay in shape.

 

I do thank Palmer for leaving now though, cause they got good picks, Green and Dalton.. And I enjoy seeing them win every year.

 

Now they gotta do it in the post season... We all agree on that too.

 

You realize you go agaisnt your own point. That shows how good the defense had to be for Dalton to win even with no experience. If Palmer had the defenses Dalton had he probably would have been to the playoffs more too and that is my point. Just look at the one year Palmer did have a good defense in 09 like Dalton has had every year. When Palmer had the defense he made the playoffs and he didn't play as good that year ad compared to all his years before. If Palmer had Daltons defenses. They probably make the playoffs in 04, 05, 06, 07, not 08 because he was hurt and then 09 we already know they made it. Dalton has had the defenses that Palmer only had once while here. To act like the defenses were basically the same is silly lol. Stats show otherwise and everyone's eye test except maybe your eye test also shows that. It's not even close.

You realize you go agaisnt your own point. That shows how good the defense had to be for Dalton to win even with no experience. If Palmer had the defenses Dalton had he probably would have been to the playoffs more too and that is my point. Just look at the one year Palmer did have a good defense in 09 like Dalton has had every year. When Palmer had the defense he made the playoffs and he didn't play as good that year ad compared to all his years before. If Palmer had Daltons defenses. They probably make the playoffs in 04, 05, 06, 07, not 08 because he was hurt and then 09 we already know they made it. Dalton has had the defenses that Palmer only had once while here. To act like the defenses were basically the same is silly lol. Stats show otherwise and everyone's eye test except maybe your eye test also shows that. It's not even close.

 

Doesn't go against my point at all... Dalton played well as a rookie and has played well every year... My point is, he was pleasant surprise and Palmer wasn't.

 

And let's not play the "probably" game... I could just as easily say if Dalton had healthy defense and Gresham could catch a football he would've won a playoff game in Houston... Or if the Bengals had a healthy offense he would've won a playoff game last year in Indy.

 

Bottom line, Palmer made it twice and on his way to a third playoff this year... Dalton is on his way to a 5th playoff trip.

What happened to Hellbird?

 

Same thing that happened to you in the past.

Let me ask you this FC, and I'll leave it at this...

 

What has Palmer achieved as an NFL QB that Dalton has not?

 

And here's the fun part, say Palmer wins a Super Bowl this year.. That means Dalton still gets like 7 more seasons to try to equal that feat.

 

So seriously, what has Palmer achieved that Dalton hasn't?

 

Both have lost playoff games though Dalton is going to 5 straight and that's something Palmer will never do.

 

Both have been to Pro Bowls, both have passed for more than 4,000 yards and more than 30 TD's in a single season...

 

I can't think of anything... He does throw a prettier spiral, but Dalton scrambles a little better... Hmmm. It's tough. Number one overall pick vs an early second rounder and it's pretty close.

Palmer has a stronger arm, so far Dalton has been more durable though. Idk, it's tough. Anything?

 

I have one: Palmer quit on his teammates, his organization and his fan base... That's one thing Dalton hasn't done.

Whitlock's article is crap. Its so easy for everyone to judge the decision by Andy because it didn't work. But if you're a confident NFL QB with a 4 time pro bowler against a 3rd string corner with no safety help over top, you're going to take the shot. The problem wasn't the decision. It was the execution. If he throws it 5 yards farther, it's a TD or PI. He didn't, so the execution, that's on him. But the decision, no way. It was obvious.

Let me ask you this FC, and I'll leave it at this...

 

What has Palmer achieved as an NFL QB that Dalton has not?

 

And here's the fun part, say Palmer wins a Super Bowl this year.. That means Dalton still gets like 7 more seasons to try to equal that feat.

 

So seriously, what has Palmer achieved that Dalton hasn't?

 

Both have lost playoff games though Dalton is going to 5 straight and that's something Palmer will never do.

 

Both have been to Pro Bowls, both have passed for more than 4,000 yards and more than 30 TD's in a single season...

 

I can't think of anything... He does throw a prettier spiral, but Dalton scrambles a little better... Hmmm. It's tough. Number one overall pick vs an early second rounder and it's pretty close.

Palmer has a stronger arm, so far Dalton has been more durable though. Idk, it's tough. Anything?

 

I have one: Palmer quit on his teammates, his organization and his fan base... That's one thing Dalton hasn't done.

 

It's seriuosly not hard to comprehend man. Your argument to try to say that Palmer had basically the same defense as Dalton has had is very weak. You put the defenses Palmer had during Daltons years and they probably never make the playoffs under Dalton. Having a top 10 defense is what led to Dalton being able to make the playoffs the majority of years and then last year he had the 6th best rushing offense. No doubt Dalton had been to the playoffs more, but for you to ignore the circumstances as to why is wrong.

 

Dalton has not done really much at all to say, well if we had another qb here we wouldn't have made it the last four years. He has had overall one of the talented rosters in the NFL around him for the last three years. Just like Palmer has shown what he can do with same talent around him now in Arizona.

 

I will say I have no problem with Dalton this year. However before this year he showed in big games or against teams with equal talent that he couldn't perform. Palmer while here most of the time didn't have a team as talented as Dalton has had, especially on the defense side and its not even close on the defensive side.

 

For the record I don't put last years playoff loss on Dalton though. I think he honestly played well considerinf he had no one to throw to.

Whitlock's article is crap. Its so easy for everyone to judge the decision by Andy because it didn't work. But if you're a confident NFL QB with a 4 time pro bowler against a 3rd string corner with no safety help over top, you're going to take the shot. The problem wasn't the decision. It was the execution. If he throws it 5 yards farther, it's a TD or PI. He didn't, so the execution, that's on him. But the decision, no way. It was obvious.

Agree 100%... Whitlock is a knucklehead. And now we have the media slamming Russell Wilson for being a "celebrity QB"... Lol! The kid has played in the last 2 Super Bowls and won one of them...and now Seattle losing is on him? I don't recall him giving up a 17 point lead in Cincy by himself...

 

I could argue that it's tougher to be an NFL QB now more than ever... Mentally.

I know rules changes have helped QB's with the physical part of the game... But mentally... Defenses are more exotic and well prepared on average than ever before, forcing QB's too really study to extremes... And more importantly, the main stream media (ESPN, fox sports, etc) and social media is relentless on these guys... Jeez. It gets old for me as a fan... Must really stink for the players... At least they're paid a fortune to play the position, so that's the trade-off I guess.

That's my problem with Palmer... They only won twice in 7 seasons with him at QB...

 

He sat his rookie year and Kitna went 8-8. Palmer's first year after sitting, watching and learning...the Bengals go 8-8.

 

Dalton with no seasoned QB to learn from took a 4-12 team to a 9-7 playoff birth his rookie year... 9-7 happens to be his worst season yet unless the wheels fall off this year.

 

Palmer had a 4-12 year... You mentioned Terrell Owens... That's Palmer's fault... I happen to have a little inside info although it's quite public now.... Palmer fought hard for TO to be there. He wanted TO and literally got into heated battles with coaches and upper management about TO... That's on him.

 

Heck, after he quit the Bengals and "retired" he was throwing to TO and TJ Housh in Cali to stay in shape.

 

I do thank Palmer for leaving now though, cause they got good picks, Green and Dalton.. And I enjoy seeing them win every year.

 

Now they gotta do it in the post season... We all agree on that too.

 

Your right they only won twice with him at qb. However if you can't tell the overall talent difference between Palmers team and the teams Dalton had then this is pointless. It is not even close top to bottom in the talent difference. So you hold Palmer accountable for not making it more with less talent around him and you give Dalton more credit for making it with a lot more talent around him. Even though the Bengals in 04 terrible defense, 05 terrible defense but did create turnovers, 06 terrible defense. 07 terrible defense. The one year Palmer had a top 10 defense they made the playoffs. Dalton has had that top 10 defense each year basically and the one year they finished 12th he had the 6th best rushing offense. So yeah Dalton has won more, but if you can't tell how much more talent he had had around him top to bottom compared to what Palmer had then this is pointless.

It's seriuosly not hard to comprehend man. Your argument to try to say that Palmer had basically the same defense as Dalton has had is very weak. You put the defenses Palmer had during Daltons years and they probably never make the playoffs under Dalton. Having a top 10 defense is what led to Dalton being able to make the playoffs the majority of years and then last year he had the 6th best rushing offense. No doubt Dalton had been to the playoffs more, but for you to ignore the circumstances as to why is wrong.

 

Dalton has not done really much at all to say, well if we had another qb here we wouldn't have made it the last four years. He has had overall one of the talented rosters in the NFL around him for the last three years. Just like Palmer has shown what he can do with same talent around him now in Arizona.

 

I will say I have no problem with Dalton this year. However before this year he showed in big games or against teams with equal talent that he couldn't perform. Palmer while here most of the time didn't have a team as talented as Dalton has had, especially on the defense side and its not even close on the defensive side.

 

For the record I don't put last years playoff loss on Dalton though. I think he honestly played well considerinf he had no one to throw to.

FC, I truly love your enthusiasm and willingness to go toe to toe.. You are a worthy debater.

 

That said, my argument isn't weak at all...

 

You keep getting hung up on the defense stuff and you're missing the point entirely.

We're talking about 2 points and 30 yards...lol! That's the difference and I don't care if it's a 7th ranked defense one year or a 17th ranked defense the next, it's what amounts to 2 points and about 30 yards.

I might be crazy, but I expect that a #1 overall pick QB could overcome 2 points and 30 yards more often than not.

I tried to clarify the "better defenses than others" comment by adding that it wasn't just meaning Bengals QB's but other top level QB's... So let's use a specific example: Peyton Manning. He spent years winning on teams with average and below average defenses and it's a fair comparison because he was also a number one overall pick.

Now I know Peyton didn't win the Super Bowl until he had a good defense and I don't believe Dalton or Palmer could win a SB without a good defense either...most QB's wouldn't.

 

But Manning won a lot of games with mediocre to bad defenses. You keep saying that Palmer won with bad defenses (again 2 points and 30 yards worse than Dalton's), but that's where you've been wrong all along.

Palmer didn't win... He left here with a losing record. That's not winning, it's losing.

 

Here's my main point that you conveniently keep glossing over... Dalton has done more with less than Palmer.

Let me clarify when I say "less". I'm talking about on a personal level... Both QB's had very nice offensive weapons and we've established that Palmer's defenses were 2 points and 30 yards worse than Dalton's...

Here's what I mean... Please pay attention: Dalton has done more with less arm strength, less height, less fan support, less media support, etc. Dalton made the error (I guess) of being better than expected too early in his career and it gets him hammered because being "very good" isn't being "elite" and he hasn't been "elite" so he must not be capable of being the QB on a championship team when we all know it takes more than a QB to win it all.

 

So again, main point...and this is my personal opinion... Not claiming it's factual, I'm claiming it's opinion... Here goes: Dalton has overachieved in comparison to what I expected and Palmer underachieved as a Bengal compared to what I expected. Period. End of story.

 

Palmer might get it done with the Cards, but he goes down in history with a losing record in Cincy.

I apologize to all BGPers for these lengthy comments, but it seems to be required with FC sometimes.

 

Also FC, let me save you the time and energy of typing out a lengthy response: there is nothing you or anyone can ever say that will change my opinion on this...ever.

It's not malicious..., I just happen to be more stubborn than Carson Palmer and Mike Brown both...

On other things, I tend to agree with you 90% of the time, so let's not forget... We are both Bengal fans, Who Dey!

Your right they only won twice with him at qb. However if you can't tell the overall talent difference between Palmers team and the teams Dalton had then this is pointless. It is not even close top to bottom in the talent difference. So you hold Palmer accountable for not making it more with less talent around him and you give Dalton more credit for making it with a lot more talent around him. Even though the Bengals in 04 terrible defense, 05 terrible defense but did create turnovers, 06 terrible defense. 07 terrible defense. The one year Palmer had a top 10 defense they made the playoffs. Dalton has had that top 10 defense each year basically and the one year they finished 12th he had the 6th best rushing offense. So yeah Dalton has won more, but if you can't tell how much more talent he had had around him top to bottom compared to what Palmer had then this is pointless.

 

Love ya man! I can tell this: Palmer personally had (has) more talent than Dalton and I just think he underachieved here in Cincy.

 

You never answered my question... What has Palmer (#1 overall pick) achieved in the NFL that Dalton hasn't?

 

Maybe this year, Palmer wins in playoffs and Dalton doesn't...idk.

 

But I know Palmer has been in the league a lot longer and I expected more from him... Did you?

FC, I truly love your enthusiasm and willingness to go toe to toe.. You are a worthy debater.

 

That said, my argument isn't weak at all...

 

You keep getting hung up on the defense stuff and you're missing the point entirely.

We're talking about 2 points and 30 yards...lol! That's the difference and I don't care if it's a 7th ranked defense one year or a 17th ranked defense the next, it's what amounts to 2 points and about 30 yards.

I might be crazy, but I expect that a #1 overall pick QB could overcome 2 points and 30 yards more often than not.

I tried to clarify the "better defenses than others" comment by adding that it wasn't just meaning Bengals QB's but other top level QB's... So let's use a specific example: Peyton Manning. He spent years winning on teams with average and below average defenses and it's a fair comparison because he was also a number one overall pick.

Now I know Peyton didn't win the Super Bowl until he had a good defense and I don't believe Dalton or Palmer could win a SB without a good defense either...most QB's wouldn't.

 

But Manning won a lot of games with mediocre to bad defenses. You keep saying that Palmer won with bad defenses (again 2 points and 30 yards worse than Dalton's), but that's where you've been wrong all along.

Palmer didn't win... He left here with a losing record. That's not winning, it's losing.

 

Here's my main point that you conveniently keep glossing over... Dalton has done more with less than Palmer.

Let me clarify when I say "less". I'm talking about on a personal level... Both QB's had very nice offensive weapons and we've established that Palmer's defenses were 2 points and 30 yards worse than Dalton's...

Here's what I mean... Please pay attention: Dalton has done more with less arm strength, less height, less fan support, less media support, etc. Dalton made the error (I guess) of being better than expected too early in his career and it gets him hammered because being "very good" isn't being "elite" and he hasn't been "elite" so he must not be capable of being the QB on a championship team when we all know it takes more than a QB to win it all.

 

So again, main point...and this is my personal opinion... Not claiming it's factual, I'm claiming it's opinion... Here goes: Dalton has overachieved in comparison to what I expected and Palmer underachieved as a Bengal compared to what I expected. Period. End of story.

 

Palmer might get it done with the Cards, but he goes down in history with a losing record in Cincy.

I apologize to all BGPers for these lengthy comments, but it seems to be required with FC sometimes.

 

Also FC, let me save you the time and energy of typing out a lengthy response: there is nothing you or anyone can ever say that will change my opinion on this...ever.

It's not malicious..., I just happen to be more stubborn than Carson Palmer and Mike Brown both...

On other things, I tend to agree with you 90% of the time, so let's not forget... We are both Bengal fans, Who Dey!

 

Which pick someone is shouldn't matter in this discussion. It's very simple who has had the better team around them in terms of talent across the board? It had been Dalton and its not even close. The 2005 Bengals did have talent and we seen how good they were. The defense had some young talent but was a bad defense overall when it didn't produce turnovers. Then the very next season 3 of our draft picks from that 2005 team never played again. People like Odell, Pollack and tab Perry. Chris Henry may he rip missed the first 8 games that next year and I believe only played a total of 11 games after that 2005 season. So the first three draft picks from 2005 was gone. Which for a team that doesn't do much in free agency that kills a team. Also that shows how much less talent those Palmer teams had. Back then we had to have our top draft picks play right away. During Daltons time the Bengals rarely have to play a 1sr round pick right away if at all because of how much talent is on the roster.

 

It's not even close or should be a debate on who had the better teams to work with. Was Palmer Peyton Manning, did he do more with less around him than Dalton ever had had to yes.

 

Shoot as you said Palmer is a stubborn man and probably wouldn't admit it i bet you if you asked him if the Bengals had what they have now around the qb would he have ever left? I bet he would have said no. Which quite honestly what he has now in Arizona is about the same as what Dalton has here. Talent to throw to, good running backs and a good defense. I mean Palmer had shown what he can do with it. 11 and 5 two years ago but missed playoffs because he nfc was crazy good that year. Then last year he was 7 and 0 before he tore his acl. The team sucked after he got hurt but they still snuck into the playoffs because of how well the season started with him. Then now this season he is doing it again. So he has shown what he can do with the same type of talent Dalton has had around him basically every year.

 

Which as I said before I think you are the only one who will actually argue that those Palmer teams were basically just as good on defense and overall talent was close. So your right this is pointless and we need to agree to disagree.

Love ya man! I can tell this: Palmer personally had (has) more talent than Dalton and I just think he underachieved here in Cincy.

 

You never answered my question... What has Palmer (#1 overall pick) achieved in the NFL that Dalton hasn't?

 

Maybe this year, Palmer wins in playoffs and Dalton doesn't...idk.

 

But I know Palmer has been in the league a lot longer and I expected more from him... Did you?

 

Once again I believe you are the only person that is a Cincinnati fan or even any NFL expert would say that Palmer had more talent on his bengal teams that Dalton. It is not even close how much more talent Dalton has around him.

 

Palmer came to a team that was 2 and 14 and worst in the league and no talent. Dalton came to a team that came off a bad year but did have talent on defense and then had a legit number 1 receiver to throw to. He had a top 10 defense to help make things easier for him to win. So with Palmer coming into a bad situation I didn't expect more from him. Honestly I thought he did everything he could do to help this team while here but didn't have much around him like a defense for that to happen. While with Dalton I did think they could win right away because of what was around him. Which is why I was the only person on here in 2011 who said they would make the playoffs, when people thought I was crazy because most thought they be lucky to win a game. I thought that because I knew Dalton was walking into a much better situation than Palmer when he first joined the Bengals. As I mentioned that Bengals don't even have to play top draft picks anymore because of the talent. Back then if a tip draft pick didn't pan out or got hurt it crushed the team because they had to rely on draft picks to play because the overall talent was not good.

Which pick someone is shouldn't matter in this discussion. It's very simple who has had the better team around them in terms of talent across the board? It had been Dalton and its not even close. The 2005 Bengals did have talent and we seen how good they were. The defense had some young talent but was a bad defense overall when it didn't produce turnovers. Then the very next season 3 of our draft picks from that 2005 team never played again. People like Odell, Pollack and tab Perry. Chris Henry may he rip missed the first 8 games that next year and I believe only played a total of 11 games after that 2005 season. So the first three draft picks from 2005 was gone. Which for a team that doesn't do much in free agency that kills a team. Also that shows how much less talent those Palmer teams had. Back then we had to have our top draft picks play right away. During Daltons time the Bengals rarely have to play a 1sr round pick right away if at all because of how much talent is on the roster.

 

It's not even close or should be a debate on who had the better teams to work with. Was Palmer Peyton Manning, did he do more with less around him than Dalton ever had had to yes.

 

Shoot as you said Palmer is a stubborn man and probably wouldn't admit it i bet you if you asked him if the Bengals had what they have now around the qb would he have ever left? I bet he would have said no. Which quite honestly what he has now in Arizona is about the same as what Dalton has here. Talent to throw to, good running backs and a good defense. I mean Palmer had shown what he can do with it. 11 and 5 two years ago but missed playoffs because he nfc was crazy good that year. Then last year he was 7 and 0 before he tore his acl. The team sucked after he got hurt but they still snuck into the playoffs because of how well the season started with him. Then now this season he is doing it again. So he has shown what he can do with the same type of talent Dalton has had around him basically every year.

 

Which as I said before I think you are the only one who will actually argue that those Palmer teams were basically just as good on defense and overall talent was close. So your right this is pointless and we need to agree to disagree.

 

On agreeing to disagree... We agree...

 

And I never said Palmer had as good of teams, I said he should be able to do more with less. And he didn't.

I tried to save you from typing a lengthy response... But oh well.

 

And what has Palmer achieved that Dalton hasn't? Still waiting on that one.. It's probably the 5th time I've asked the question too.