November 24, 201510 yr Author I'm saying he had better defenses than most elite QB's did, not all Bengal QB's... And in 08 the D was 12th In 09 the D was 4th In 10 the D was 15th That's not terrible during his time here... I know in 06 and 07 they were in the 20's and stuff... Point is, when your D isn't that good you can't turn it over like he was doing in the first half last night and he did that all too often in Cincy. 08 he played two games, so he didn't get to play with a defense. 09 was the one year he had a good defense and it was dang good. 10 the defense was average. Which as I mentioned back then he did that often in Cincinnati because he had wrs like Chad and then To who would free lance routes. A qb has to anticipate where your going to be at. So if you run your route two yards shorter or don't get to the right depth. A pass that may have been right on the money if the wr was at the right spot ends up being a high pass or interception. Just look at how many times after passes where they were incomplete or intercepted and palmer and Chad would look at each other confused what the other was doing. Well we seen from Chad's failed experiment with the Pats where they demand you be in the right spot that he sucked at doing that. So yes more reason to believe that Palmer wasn't as bad as people thought and what he was working with and throwing to hurt him. Which is sad because chad use to be a great route runner before he cared more about off field stuff and that showed by him and Palmer not being on the same page and showed even more with Chad in New England and Palmer looking great and still in the league.
November 24, 201510 yr Author Btw FC, I looked up the Bengals defensive numbers for Palmer seasons vs Dalton seasons... The most important number , points allowed is very similar... And the Bengals created more turnovers on average and scored more defensive points when Palmer was here... Here's the numbers of points allowed: '04 - 372 '05 - 350 '06 - 331 '07 - 385 '08 - 364 '09 - 291 '10 - 395 That's an average of 355 points allowed total and an average of 22.18 points per game '11 - 323 '12 - 320 '13 - 305 '14 - 344 '15 - in progress That's an average of 323 total points allowed and an average of 20.18 points per game. So, yeah you can argue that Palmer's defenses gave up 2 more points per game, but that also caused more turnovers and were more opportunistic in scoring on defense... So, yards allowed as defenses are ranked don't really tell the whole story... When you look at points allowed and turnovers, etc. it's a wash. Yards allowed does tell more of the story. More yards means teams are on offense and moving the ball. Which means controlling the clock and also means most likely winning the field position battle because of no three and outs and more being pinned back having to have long drives. I think you are the only person who will really argue that the Bengals defense was good back then haha.
November 24, 201510 yr 08 he played two games, so he didn't get to play with a defense. 09 was the one year he had a good defense and it was dang good. 10 the defense was average. Which as I mentioned back then he did that often in Cincinnati because he had wrs like Chad and then To who would free lance routes. A qb has to anticipate where your going to be at. So if you run your route two yards shorter or don't get to the right depth. A pass that may have been right on the money if the wr was at the right spot ends up being a high pass or interception. Just look at how many times after passes where they were incomplete or intercepted and palmer and Chad would look at each other confused what the other was doing. Well we seen from Chad's failed experiment with the Pats where they demand you be in the right spot that he sucked at doing that. So yes more reason to believe that Palmer wasn't as bad as people thought and what he was working with and throwing to hurt him. Which is sad because chad use to be a great route runner before he cared more about off field stuff and that showed by him and Palmer not being on the same page and showed even more with Chad in New England and Palmer looking great and still in the league. I don't have a problem with Palmer, I just have a problem with they way people seem to view Dalton... Like in your earlier posts about the defenses.... So, you're saying the Bengals won because of Palmer in 2 whole seasons out of 7 and they won despite Dalton in all 4 and a half years he's been here? Interesting... So, Dalton's rookie year when he helped a 4-12 team get to a 9-7 playoff birth that was just because of good defense.... In 2013, when Dalton threw for franchise records (33 TD's and almost 4,300 yards) both surpassing Palmer's best season...that was because of defense... The only "bad" year Andy has had was last season and he didn't have Jones or Eiffert...even played without Green some... And still, he helped them get to 10-6 and a playoff birth. So, only this season you are saying they're winning some because of him? Bottom line, Palmer was a number one overall pick and has achieved less than Dalton in Cincy... He very well may achieve less than Andy across his entire career when it's all said and done. Time will tell. The main thing that has finally come to a head with me is how Dalton is treated differently than other QB's... They say that QB's get the glory when they win and the blame when they lose... Not Andy, lol! He gets the blame when they lose and when they win, it's just because of defense... Lol. Almost comical at this point. I mean, last night he drives the team on the road to a game tying field goal and the defense folds with 1 minute left and the Bengals lose.... Next day, we have idiots writing articles about Dalton's selfishness cost them the game... Really?! Lol! How about this? Dalton almost won that game despite his defense.... All people chirp about is playoff wins.. Here's one for ya... Yates from Houston has won in the playoffs, Mark Sanchez has won in the playoffs... Would you trade Andy for them or several other average and below average QB's who have been on "teams" that have won playoff games? I'll take my chances with Andy. He gets better every year... Maybe he, his teammates and his coaches will figure out what it takes to win in the playoffs... All I know is, if you don't get there, you'll never win a playoff game. At least Andy's Bengals are getting there... Every year.
November 24, 201510 yr Yards allowed does tell more of the story. More yards means teams are on offense and moving the ball. Which means controlling the clock and also means most likely winning the field position battle because of no three and outs and more being pinned back having to have long drives. I think you are the only person who will really argue that the Bengals defense was good back then haha. I think most would agree that points allowed matters more than yards allowed... And the defenses for both QB's were pretty similar in that regard.
November 24, 201510 yr Author I think most would agree that points allowed matters more than yards allowed... And the defenses for both QB's were pretty similar in that regard. That's fine let's use points allowed. I love how you leave out what the Bengals were ranked in scoring defense those years. 21st, 22nd, 17th, 24th, 6th and 24th. That's an average of 19th in the league when Palmer was here. If you take out the one year the defense did great then all his other years they rated as the 22nd best scoring defense. So sure seems like the scoring defense was bad just like the total yards. For Dalton the scoring defense has ranked 9th, 8th, 5th, 12th and this year 4th so far. Thats an average of 7th best in the league during Daltons time. To go along with top 10 in total yards. So its not even really close both total defense and scoring defense Dalton had had a much better defense. So the stats say other wise and even the eye test says other wise. As I mentioned your the first person j have ever heard claim Palmer had good defenses. They were consistently below average to bad during his time except for one year. Its been the opposite for Dalton.
November 24, 201510 yr Author Facts, stats, and eye test all say other wise. I can't believe we're even debating the defenses then to now lol. There is also a reason why Lewis had to fire two defensive coordinators because they sucked on defense. They got a good one in Zimmer. However since Palmer played only two games in 08. 09 was the first year he got the chance to experience a too defense. Which was a good thing because Palmer still had elbow problems, Chad was washed up and no other wr opposite of Chad. Wasn't much on offense at all. Which shows how having a top 10 defense can help you win, which is what Dalton had gotten to have each year basically.
November 24, 201510 yr Bengals should finish with Atleast a 5-1 record and go 13-3. I like their chances in Denver especially if Manning is back.
November 24, 201510 yr That's fine let's use points allowed. I love how you leave out what the Bengals were ranked in scoring defense those years. 21st, 22nd, 17th, 24th, 6th and 24th. That's an average of 19th in the league when Palmer was here. If you take out the one year the defense did great then all his other years they rated as the 22nd best scoring defense. So sure seems like the scoring defense was bad just like the total yards. For Dalton the scoring defense has ranked 9th, 8th, 5th, 12th and this year 4th so far. Thats an average of 7th best in the league during Daltons time. To go along with top 10 in total yards. So its not even really close both total defense and scoring defense Dalton had had a much better defense. So the stats say other wise and even the eye test says other wise. As I mentioned your the first person j have ever heard claim Palmer had good defenses. They were consistently below average to bad during his time except for one year. Its been the opposite for Dalton. Those defensive rankings go up and down based on the league... I'm comparing Bengals to Bengals... And the difference is about 2 points per game... Doesn't matter if that was sometimes a top 10 defense or a bottom ten defense.
November 24, 201510 yr Facts, stats, and eye test all say other wise. I can't believe we're even debating the defenses then to now lol. There is also a reason why Lewis had to fire two defensive coordinators because they sucked on defense. They got a good one in Zimmer. However since Palmer played only two games in 08. 09 was the first year he got the chance to experience a too defense. Which was a good thing because Palmer still had elbow problems, Chad was washed up and no other wr opposite of Chad. Wasn't much on offense at all. Which shows how having a top 10 defense can help you win, which is what Dalton had gotten to have each year basically. We definitely agree on Zimmer... Unfortunately, Andy only got 3 seasons with Mike too and that was Andy's first 3 years in the league. At least Palmer was a more seasoned QB in '09 when he had Zimmer on the other side of the ball. Bottom line we both like Palmer and Dalton cause we are Bengal fans... Where I think we disagree... Palmer gave us less than expected (and injuries played into it) but Dalton has given any honest, sane Bengals fan more than we expected.
November 24, 201510 yr Bengals should finish with Atleast a 5-1 record and go 13-3. I like their chances in Denver especially if Manning is back. 13-3 or 12-4, I'm not for sure yet...
November 24, 201510 yr Author Those defensive rankings go up and down based on the league... I'm comparing Bengals to Bengals... And the difference is about 2 points per game... Doesn't matter if that was sometimes a top 10 defense or a bottom ten defense. It does matter. It's not this huge 10 points per game difference between a top 10 defense and a bottom 10. It is consistent around a 2 or 3 point difference between a team a top 10 team and bottom 10 no matter what year it is. Meaning during Palmers time the Bengals defense was always one of the worst defenses in the league, while under Dalton they have always been one of the best. Not to mention it is even harder now to play defense than it even was ten years ago with all these new rules being enforced even more. That shows even more how much better these defenses have been the last 4 years than they were with Dalton. The facts and the eye test even says there is no comparison. During most of Palmers time the defense was one of the worst in the league. During Daltons time they been one of the best. There is nothing to debate here lol.
November 24, 201510 yr It does matter. It's not this huge 10 points per game difference between a top 10 defense and a bottom 10. It is consistent around a 2 or 3 point difference between a team a top 10 team and bottom 10 no matter what year it is. Meaning during Palmers time the Bengals defense was always one of the worst defenses in the league, while under Dalton they have always been one of the best. Not to mention it is even harder now to play defense than it even was ten years ago with all these new rules being enforced even more. That shows even more how much better these defenses have been the last 4 years than they were with Dalton. The facts and the eye test even says there is no comparison. During most of Palmers time the defense was one of the worst in the league. During Daltons time they been one of the best. There is nothing to debate here lol. And your eye test didn't tell you that more of the defenses in the Palmer era were more opportunistic in pressuring QB's and forcing turnovers?
November 24, 201510 yr Author We definitely agree on Zimmer... Unfortunately, Andy only got 3 seasons with Mike too and that was Andy's first 3 years in the league. At least Palmer was a more seasoned QB in '09 when he had Zimmer on the other side of the ball. Bottom line we both like Palmer and Dalton cause we are Bengal fans... Where I think we disagree... Palmer gave us less than expected (and injuries played into it) but Dalton has given any honest, sane Bengals fan more than we expected. That is where we still disagree. Your right Palmer was the more seasoned qb. So that shows how good the defense had to be early on for the Bengals to win with Dalton. During Palmers days the Bengals won most of the games because of Palmer. During most of the time during Daltons run the Bengals would have won a lot of games with a lot of qbs and won many despite of if he played well or not. 09 was the only year where Palmer didn't have to carry the team for them to win. There is many qbs who imo would have won and made the playoffs the last few years with these defenses and the talent that is on this offense. As I mentioned this is the first year where I believe Dalton has actually played up to the talent around him. I am very happy with him overall this year. I just completley disagree on the years prior with him compared to Palmers years.
November 24, 201510 yr Author And your eye test didn't tell you that more of the defenses in the Palmer era were more opportunistic in pressuring QB's and forcing turnovers? Yes teams were able to do that more and also still able to stop teams more than the Bengals defense and also let teams score less than the Bengals defense. Shoot the Bengals defense back then also sucked at pressuring the qb unlike the defense during most of Daltons time. The 2005 defense did a good job creating turnovers and that is even a little misleading since they created 15 turnovers in 3 games. However when that 2005 was unable to create a turnover they weren't able to stop anyone. It's not even close man. Even the stats don't support your argument lol. Don't be like my old pal Hellbird, who would argue even when stats say otherwise. Which is probably why I am discussing this so much with you. Without him on here I have no one to debate with and it gets boring now lol.
November 24, 201510 yr That is where we still disagree. Your right Palmer was the more seasoned qb. So that shows how good the defense had to be early on for the Bengals to win with Dalton. During Palmers days the Bengals won most of the games because of Palmer. During most of the time during Daltons run the Bengals would have won a lot of games with a lot of qbs and won many despite of if he played well or not. 09 was the only year where Palmer didn't have to carry the team for them to win. There is many qbs who imo would have won and made the playoffs the last few years with these defenses and the talent that is on this offense. As I mentioned this is the first year where I believe Dalton has actually played up to the talent around him. I am very happy with him overall this year. I just completley disagree on the years prior with him compared to Palmers years. That's my problem with Palmer... They only won twice in 7 seasons with him at QB... He sat his rookie year and Kitna went 8-8. Palmer's first year after sitting, watching and learning...the Bengals go 8-8. Dalton with no seasoned QB to learn from took a 4-12 team to a 9-7 playoff birth his rookie year... 9-7 happens to be his worst season yet unless the wheels fall off this year. Palmer had a 4-12 year... You mentioned Terrell Owens... That's Palmer's fault... I happen to have a little inside info although it's quite public now.... Palmer fought hard for TO to be there. He wanted TO and literally got into heated battles with coaches and upper management about TO... That's on him. Heck, after he quit the Bengals and "retired" he was throwing to TO and TJ Housh in Cali to stay in shape. I do thank Palmer for leaving now though, cause they got good picks, Green and Dalton.. And I enjoy seeing them win every year. Now they gotta do it in the post season... We all agree on that too.
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