Once again I believe you are the only person that is a Cincinnati fan or even any NFL expert would say that Palmer had more talent on his bengal teams that Dalton. It is not even close how much more talent Dalton has around him.

 

Palmer came to a team that was 2 and 14 and worst in the league and no talent. Dalton came to a team that came off a bad year but did have talent on defense and then had a legit number 1 receiver to throw to. He had a top 10 defense to help make things easier for him to win. So with Palmer coming into a bad situation I didn't expect more from him. Honestly I thought he did everything he could do to help this team while here but didn't have much around him like a defense for that to happen. While with Dalton I did think they could win right away because of what was around him. Which is why I was the only person on here in 2011 who said they would make the playoffs, when people thought I was crazy because most thought they be lucky to win a game. I thought that because I knew Dalton was walking into a much better situation than Palmer when he first joined the Bengals. As I mentioned that Bengals don't even have to play top draft picks anymore because of the talent. Back then if a tip draft pick didn't pan out or got hurt it crushed the team because they had to rely on draft picks to play because the overall talent was not good.

 

And where did I say Palmer had more talent around him than Dalton?

 

What I said is Palmer (personally) has more talent... And has for a career underachieved. And this season, Palmer possibly does have more talent around him... So far, same record.

On agreeing to disagree... We agree...

 

And I never said Palmer had as good of teams, I said he should be able to do more with less. And he didn't.

I tried to save you from typing a lengthy response... But oh well.

 

And what has Palmer achieved that Dalton hasn't? Still waiting on that one.. It's probably the 5th time I've asked the question too.

 

Your right palmer hasn't achieved what Dalton has and I have explained why Dalton has and why Palmer hasn't. It's very simple man. Dalton has been a very average qb at best for the first four years and benefitted from having a lot of talent around him towhere an average qb can still make the playoffs. Palmer took teams with less talent to playoffs and on brinks of playoffs. Then with the Cardinals he has simply had bad luck. 11 and 5 two years ago usually makes the playoffs. Then last year he would have made it but then got hurt, and we see how he is doing this year. So yeah Dalton has done more with more around him. Put it this way is Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer better than most qbs since they won Super Bowls? Or were they average qbs that benefitted from having great talent and great defenses? Does that make them better than most qbs then?

 

I am not one who thinks Dalton is horrible. For four years he has been average at best but I defended him when people say he was horrible because he is not. So just because I disagree with you on this doesn't mean I I think he is horrible. This year I think he is better than average and I love it.

Your right palmer hasn't achieved what Dalton has and I have explained why Dalton has and why Palmer hasn't. It's very simple man. Dalton has been a very average qb at best for the first four years and benefitted from having a lot of talent around him towhere an average qb can still make the playoffs. Palmer took teams with less talent to playoffs and on brinks of playoffs. Then with the Cardinals he has simply had bad luck. 11 and 5 two years ago usually makes the playoffs. Then last year he would have made it but then got hurt, and we see how he is doing this year. So yeah Dalton has done more with more around him. Put it this way is Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer better than most qbs since they won Super Bowls? Or were they average qbs that benefitted from having great talent and great defenses? Does that make them better than most qbs then?

 

I am not one who thinks Dalton is horrible. For four years he has been average at best but I defended him when people say he was horrible because he is not. So just because I disagree with you on this doesn't mean I I think he is horrible. This year I think he is better than average and I love it.

 

You must enjoy wasting your time...lol!

 

I said it's "my opinion" and you can't change it... I'm not trying to change yours.

 

My opinion is Dalton is not elite but is better than average... Also my opinion is Palmer should have been elite and hasn't been over his career.

 

I don't think Dalton was average in 2013 when he broke Palmer's TD and passing yard record in Cincy... I don't think he's been average this year.

 

I think Palmer was above average in '05 and '06, I'll give him a couple more years too.. But never elite... Just my opinion.

 

All I've said is he should have accomplished more by now... And my opinion won't change on that.

 

Very similar careers between the two in terms of numbers... Based on their first 5 years anyway.

 

I think Palmer should've shouldered as much blame for losses as Dalton has... And it's because like I said (and you kept misreading it) Dalton has done more with less... Meaning his own talents, not the players around him.

 

Sorry, forgot to comment on Dilfer and Johnson... For one, they both had much better defenses than Dalton ever has...

Two, Dalton has personally been a better QB than either of them, even without his full arsenal of weapons last season. Again, my opinion... That won't change.

Ok FC, I think I can sum this little discussion up... Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Disagreement 1)

You think Palmer did enough while in Cincy and I think he could've and should've done more.

 

Disagreement 2)

You think Andy played about how you would expect because of the team around him while in Cincy and I think Andy has played better overall than should've been expected.

 

Simplifies it... Doesn't matter what reasons, stats, etc we wanna throw at each other... Those are the disagreements in a nutshell and we aren't going to change each other's opinion.

 

That's totally fine. That's one thing I like about BGP... We can have a dialogue and we don't have to agree in the end.

 

Where we do agree:

 

Palmer is having a great year.

 

Dalton is having a great year.

 

They both have really solid players around them.

 

Now, one or both of them need to go out and succeed in the playoffs.

You must enjoy wasting your time...lol!

 

I said it's "my opinion" and you can't change it... I'm not trying to change yours.

 

My opinion is Dalton is not elite but is better than average... Also my opinion is Palmer should have been elite and hasn't been over his career.

 

I don't think Dalton was average in 2013 when he broke Palmer's TD and passing yard record in Cincy... I don't think he's been average this year.

 

I think Palmer was above average in '05 and '06, I'll give him a couple more years too.. But never elite... Just my opinion.

 

All I've said is he should have accomplished more by now... And my opinion won't change on that.

 

Very similar careers between the two in terms of numbers... Based on their first 5 years anyway.

 

I think Palmer should've shouldered as much blame for losses as Dalton has... And it's because like I said (and you kept misreading it) Dalton has done more with less... Meaning his own talents, not the players around him.

 

Sorry, forgot to comment on Dilfer and Johnson... For one, they both had much better defenses than Dalton ever has...

Two, Dalton has personally been a better QB than either of them, even without his full arsenal of weapons last season. Again, my opinion... That won't change.

 

That's the problem, you really believe Dalton has done more with less? What? I get that is your opinion but at least support it with something. Dalton has had one of the most talented teams in the NFL top to bottom while here. Palmer did not. Which means Palmer did more with less not the other way around.

 

I really am interested in you supporting that Palmer had more talent around him than Dalton and how Dalton has done more with less. This should be interesting lol.

Ok FC, I think I can sum this little discussion up... Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Disagreement 1)

You think Palmer did enough while in Cincy and I think he could've and should've done more.

 

Disagreement 2)

You think Andy played about how you would expect because of the team around him while in Cincy and I think Andy has played better overall than should've been expected.

 

Simplifies it... Doesn't matter what reasons, stats, etc we wanna throw at each other... Those are the disagreements in a nutshell and we aren't going to change each other's opinion.

 

That's totally fine. That's one thing I like about BGP... We can have a dialogue and we don't have to agree in the end.

 

Where we do agree:

 

Palmer is having a great year.

 

Dalton is having a great year.

 

They both have really solid players around them.

 

Now, one or both of them need to go out and succeed in the playoffs.

 

Nope we disagree in many other areas. Like you saying Palmers defenses were basically the same as Daltons, and that Dalton did more with less. Also disagree with how you fail to recognize or even acknowledge why Dalton was able to be in more playoffs than Palmer.

 

Do I think Palmer could have done more here, yes I do. Do I think he could have done more during the years he actually was here, no. He did all he could to put them in the playoffs in 06 and just needed simple extra point and or a field goal to be made at the end. 07 defense was flat out horrible. 08 he played 2 games i don't know what you expect that year. 2009 he had a defense, he swept the division, and made the playoffs. Even though he didn't play great he still put them in position to possibly win but Graham missed two chip shot field goals. 2010 was just bad all the way around for him and everyone. Then I already talked about his Arizona years. I honestly think if Palmer sucked it up and stayed that he would have done more here. I think we still would have been in the playoffs the last four years and I think we would have had a better chance to have actually won a playoff game by now.

Man, it's like Groundhog Day...

Man, it's like Groundhog Day...

 

Hey its not like anyone was going to say much more in this thread anyways lol. So me and him might as well do this now, so this debate does go over into threads that matter lol

That's the problem, you really believe Dalton has done more with less? What? I get that is your opinion but at least support it with something. Dalton has had one of the most talented teams in the NFL top to bottom while here. Palmer did not. Which means Palmer did more with less not the other way around.

 

I really am interested in you supporting that Palmer had more talent around him than Dalton and how Dalton has done more with less. This should be interesting lol.

 

Dude, Hellbird was 100% right about you... You can't read!

 

I never said Dalton did more with less around him... I said Dalton personally has less talent as a QB than Palmer and he's done more with what he has personally..

 

Please read: surely you're brighter than this... Lol!

 

Palmer has a bigger arm, taller to see the field, has always had more media support and when he was in Cincy.. Much more fan support!

 

You refuse to read... I agreed with you, based on numbers that Palmer's defenses were 2 points and 30 yards worse than Dalton's... I just don't agree how much of a difference that makes when you take into account...

 

Palmer has more God-given ability and hasnt achieved what I think he could have.

 

I'm glad we disagree on more than I thought. If you wanna keep going... Have at it... I'm self employed and have all the time in the world for your silliness..

 

Any thread you ever comment on... You just gotta be right! Guess what, in my opinion, you are wrong! And I don't care what you think... You're like an annoying Knat at this point...

Nope we disagree in many other areas. Like you saying Palmers defenses were basically the same as Daltons, and that Dalton did more with less. Also disagree with how you fail to recognize or even acknowledge why Dalton was able to be in more playoffs than Palmer.

 

Do I think Palmer could have done more here, yes I do. Do I think he could have done more during the years he actually was here, no. He did all he could to put them in the playoffs in 06 and just needed simple extra point and or a field goal to be made at the end. 07 defense was flat out horrible. 08 he played 2 games i don't know what you expect that year. 2009 he had a defense, he swept the division, and made the playoffs. Even though he didn't play great he still put them in position to possibly win but Graham missed two chip shot field goals. 2010 was just bad all the way around for him and everyone. Then I already talked about his Arizona years. I honestly think if Palmer sucked it up and stayed that he would have done more here. I think we still would have been in the playoffs the last four years and I think we would have had a better chance to have actually won a playoff game by now.

Read my last comment... In fact, read my last 5 or 6 comments... They all answer whatever you're making up in your head as a debate...

 

I don't have to be up until 2pm... So, I got all night FC...

 

In case your still having trouble reading... I'm bored with this.

Man, it's like Groundhog Day...

 

How many chances do you gotta give this guy to drop it? Lol!

 

I mean, my last few comments were all aimed at extending an invitation to end this thing...

 

Did I not say, he'll never change my opinion and I don't care if I change his? Wow...

Dude, Hellbird was 100% right about you... You can't read!

 

I never said Dalton did more with less around him... I said Dalton personally has less talent as a QB than Palmer and he's done more with what he has personally..

 

Please read: surely you're brighter than this... Lol!

 

Palmer has a bigger arm, taller to see the field, has always had more media support and when he was in Cincy.. Much more fan support!

 

You refuse to read... I agreed with you, based on numbers that Palmer's defenses were 2 points and 30 yards worse than Dalton's... I just don't agree how much of a difference that makes when you take into account...

 

Palmer has more God-given ability and hasnt achieved what I think he could have.

 

I'm glad we disagree on more than I thought. If you wanna keep going... Have at it... I'm self employed and have all the time in the world for your silliness..

 

Any thread you ever comment on... You just gotta be right! Guess what, in my opinion, you are wrong! And I don't care what you think... You're like an annoying Knat at this point...

 

No I am going to support my opinion just like you. That is where you and Hellbird are funny. Because you all do the exact same thing and do what you can to support your opinion, but have a problem when someone supports their own back.

 

Also you have clearly said Palmer had better defenses than Dalton I didnt misread that and I believe that is what started this. As for hellbird, greyfox, etc. It seems like he thought many people misread his post when it wasn't people misreading, but that's another issue lol. I actually do admit when I am wrong. Which I admit I did read the one sentence of yours wrong. The sentence about Dalton doing more with less, I looked back and saw that you talked about him personally. So I was wrong on that and have no problem admitting that I misread it.

 

I have no problem with you at all. I have actually enjoyed this debate with you and overall was a healthy debate. So no problems here, we just completley disagree haha.

How many chances do you gotta give this guy to drop it? Lol!

 

I mean, my last few comments were all aimed at extending an invitation to end this thing...

 

Did I not say, he'll never change my opinion and I don't care if I change his? Wow...

 

Very true but your comments to end it always came after you trying to support your opinion more first. It's like say ok let me get the last word, and then I will say lets drop it lol. You have admitted your stubborn and you already know I am lol. But as you seen with my last post I have also agreed to drop it

How many chances do you gotta give this guy to drop it? Lol!

 

I mean, my last few comments were all aimed at extending an invitation to end this thing...

 

Did I not say, he'll never change my opinion and I don't care if I change his? Wow...

 

Very true but your comments to end it always came after you trying to support your opinion more first. It's like say ok let me get the last word, and then I will say lets drop it lol. You have admitted your stubborn and you already know I am lol. But as you seen with my last post I have also agreed to drop it

No I am going to support my opinion just like you. That is where you and Hellbird are funny. Because you all do the exact same thing and do what you can to support your opinion, but have a problem when someone supports their own back.

 

Also you have clearly said Palmer had better defenses than Dalton I didnt misread that and I believe that is what started this. As for hellbird, greyfox, etc. It seems like he thought many people misread his post when it wasn't people misreading, but that's another issue lol. I actually do admit when I am wrong. Which I admit I did read the one sentence of yours wrong. The sentence about Dalton doing more with less, I looked back and saw that you talked about him personally. So I was wrong on that and have no problem admitting that I misread it.

 

I have no problem with you at all. I have actually enjoyed this debate with you and overall was a healthy debate. So no problems here, we just completley disagree haha.

 

I'm just gonna respond without even reading this post, like it seems you have most the time.

 

Jk, I couldn't resist a little cheap shot there!

 

Cool, we are cool. Like I said we agree 90% of the time that I can recall anyway.