Don't know. That's why I asked.

 

:lol2:

 

It was a rhetorical question.

 

I think anytime anyone talks to God, it's a prayer.

My argument above was to point out Christ prayed publicly. I'd say loaves, fish, 5000 would be public.

 

I guess where I'm coming from Spindoc is that Jesus both modeled and spoke more about prayer as an intimate activity than He did in teaching or modeling public prayer beyond a worship setting. You guys have given me a very good example that honestly I forgot about.

 

I'm not sure it constitutes the absolute rationale for the issue we are discussing but it's a good example that you feel supports and I can see that. I suppose though the teaching in Matthew about prayer might trump that thinking as well. :thumb:

I guess where I'm coming from Spindoc is that Jesus both modeled and spoke more about prayer as an intimate activity than He did in teaching or modeling public prayer beyond a worship setting. You guys have given me a very good example that honestly I forgot about.

 

I'm not sure it constitutes the absolute rationale for the issue we are discussing but it's a good example that you feel supports and I can see that. I suppose though the teaching in Matthew about prayer might trump that thinking as well. :thumb:

I totally agree.

I guess where I'm coming from Spindoc is that Jesus both modeled and spoke more about prayer as an intimate activity than He did in teaching or modeling public prayer beyond a worship setting. You guys have given me a very good example that honestly I forgot about.

 

I'm not sure it constitutes the absolute rationale for the issue we are discussing but it's a good example that you feel supports and I can see that. I suppose though the teaching in Matthew about prayer might trump that thinking as well. :thumb:

 

For me, it's less about praying in private vs. public & much more about why am I praying to start with. If I'm praying in public, I have to be sure I'm not doing it for the purpose of putting on a show like the Pharisees were so professional at doing. Heck, that's something I have to watch if I'm praying with just three or four people.

 

I get what you are saying, I think, that sometimes corporate prayer or public prayer can turn into grandstanding. Jesus clearly came down hard on that. But at the same time, I don't think all corporate prayer or public prayer is grandstanding.

I'm not arguing that you need those things to pray. Not remotely. My prayer time that is totally private is communication that is vital for my relationship with Christ who intercedes for me. However, not only is it not illegal to do what they did, it has zero to do with what you perceive as necessity for prayer. It's their right to do so, whether you or I or anyone else wants to join in, or if we think they're doing it for show. And while the latter may be true, I will argue that it's certainly not the case for everyone. IMO, there is power in corporate prayer. If prayer has any effect tow whatever degree you believe it does, how in the world would I not believe that the Creator of the Universe wouldn't hear one I spoke aloud? I commend them for exercising their faith even when those would try to oppress it.

 

I would think even Jesus himself would agree there is a time and a place.

 

The loud audible group pregame prayer is not about teaching nor spreading the good word.

 

Especially if it's the Lord's Prayer or any other prayer a heathen like me can recite verbatim (when I've stepped foot inside a church just once this year ... because a friend of my wife's was getting married).

For me, it's less about praying in private vs. public & much more about why am I praying to start with. If I'm praying in public, I have to be sure I'm not doing it for the purpose of putting on a show like the Pharisees were so professional at doing. Heck, that's something I have to watch if I'm praying with just three or four people.

 

I get what you are saying, I think, that sometimes corporate prayer or public prayer can turn into grandstanding. Jesus clearly came down hard on that. But at the same time, I don't think all corporate prayer or public prayer is grandstanding.

 

I don't think it ALL is grandstanding. If I came across that way, I do apologize. That was not my intent.

 

But if you're gonna do it in a public setting, shouldn't it be from a priest or a pastor at a local church or a youth group leader (say the one that runs the "Fifth Quarter" postgame) or if it has to be a student, some sort of club chaplain or the president of the FCA (or members of the FCA).

 

Why cheerleaders? Because people look at them.

I really appreciate your discussions today. Makes me feel good that we can "hash out" these passionate issues in a way that is worthy of the time.

 

BTW, for what its worth, many on here know I have had numerous opportunities to pray at large events such as a few NASCAR races. I never once believed that the vast majority were really listening or praying (except for Dale Jr to win or more beer to appear :lol2:) but I was asked by the track owners to provide a sectarian blessing on the event and to give thanks for the day. I struggle with calling it prayer mainly because the Fox Sports or ESPN guy stressing "you have only 25 seconds" is not real conducive to true prayer as I interpret it.

 

Thanks again for the discussion.

For me, it's less about praying in private vs. public & much more about why am I praying to start with. If I'm praying in public, I have to be sure I'm not doing it for the purpose of putting on a show like the Pharisees were so professional at doing. Heck, that's something I have to watch if I'm praying with just three or four people.

 

I get what you are saying, I think, that sometimes corporate prayer or public prayer can turn into grandstanding. Jesus clearly came down hard on that. But at the same time, I don't think all corporate prayer or public prayer is grandstanding.

 

Your flock is obviously in good hands, my friend.

 

Too often these public prayer events are more about politics than prayer.

I don't think it ALL is grandstanding. If I came across that way, I do apologize. That was not my intent.

 

But if you're gonna do it in a public setting, shouldn't it be from a priest or a pastor at a local church or a youth group leader (say the one that runs the "Fifth Quarter" postgame) or if it has to be a student, some sort of club chaplain or the president of the FCA (or members of the FCA).

 

Why cheerleaders? Because people look at them.

And you may be totally correct. But imagine the uproar had a pastor walked to midfield.

I really appreciate your discussions today. Makes me feel good that we can "hash out" these passionate issues in a way that is worthy of the time.

 

BTW, for what its worth, many on here know I have had numerous opportunities to pray at large events such as a few NASCAR races. I never once believed that the vast majority were really listening or praying (except for Dale Jr to win or more beer to appear :lol2:) but I was asked by the track owners to provide a sectarian blessing on the event and to give thanks for the day. I struggle with calling it prayer mainly because the Fox Sports or ESPN guy stressing "you have only 25 seconds" is not real conducive to true prayer as I interpret it.

 

Thanks again for the discussion.

 

NASCAR's the one pro sport where the "P.A. Prayer" is widely accepted. I have a suspicion it's because racin' is a mostly Southern thing compared to the other widespread sports.

 

If each high school football team had a chaplain (U of L basketball does under Pitino), I'd probably lean the other way.

 

But cheerleaders leading prayer? Instead of a youth group leader or FCA (which many schools have)? Come on.

 

" I struggle with calling it prayer mainly because the Fox Sports or ESPN guy stressing "you have only 25 seconds" is not real conducive to true prayer as I interpret it. " -- I laughed. Didn't mean to, but I get your point. Quite a different prayer you have to come up with than at a wedding, funeral, "Meet Me at the Pole", etc.

And you may be totally correct. But imagine the uproar had a pastor walked to midfield.

 

I've been to several football games, usually on the road in smaller towns/counties, where the pastor wasn't at midfield, but was handed the mic by the P.A. guy.

 

Not likely to happen at, say, Male or Ballard, though.

 

Not much of an uproar. Pretty accepted, actually.

 

I believe -- and I think several here would agree -- there would be MORE of an uproar over someone taking the mic and saying "Allahu Akbar" and ""Subhana rabbiyal adheem" and "Sam'i Allahu liman hamidah, Rabbana wa lakal hamd" even though their translated Muslim meanings are:

 

-- God is Most Great

-- Glory be to my Lord Almighty

-- God hears those who call upon Him; Our Lord, praise be to You

I've been to several football games, usually on the road in smaller towns/counties, where the pastor wasn't at midfield, but was handed the mic by the P.A. guy.

 

Not likely to happen at, say, Male or Ballard, though.

 

Not much of an uproar. Pretty accepted, actually.

 

I believe -- and I think several here would agree -- there would be MORE of an uproar over someone taking the mic and saying "Allahu Akbar" and ""Subhana rabbiyal adheem" and "Sam'i Allahu liman hamidah, Rabbana wa lakal hamd" even though their translated Muslim meanings are:

 

-- God is Most Great

-- Glory be to my Lord Almighty

-- God hears those who call upon Him; Our Lord, praise be to You

Probably, but by different groups obviously. And I doubt it would receive the same venom here from some, more from others.

NASCAR's the one pro sport where the "P.A. Prayer" is widely accepted. I have a suspicion it's because racin' is a mostly Southern thing compared to the other widespread sports.

 

If each high school football team had a chaplain (U of L basketball does under Pitino), I'd probably lean the other way.

 

But cheerleaders leading prayer? Instead of a youth group leader or FCA (which many schools have)? Come on.

 

" I struggle with calling it prayer mainly because the Fox Sports or ESPN guy stressing "you have only 25 seconds" is not real conducive to true prayer as I interpret it. " -- I laughed. Didn't mean to, but I get your point. Quite a different prayer you have to come up with than at a wedding, funeral, "Meet Me at the Pole", etc.

FWIW, the VP of the FCA organization when I was in HS was a cheerleader. They're not exclusive of one another, and are we sure she wasn't a member? If she was, would that be more appropriate in your view?

FWIW, the VP of the FCA organization when I was in HS was a cheerleader. They're not exclusive of one another, and are we sure she wasn't a member? If she was, would that be more appropriate in your view?

 

Wouldn't hurt my feelings.

 

However:

 

"[The announcer] called for the moment of SILENCE and I started off, 'Our Father who art in heaven' and everyone joined in," Canada told WBIR.

“It is your option what you do in that moment of SILENCE and this is our option,” Oneida cheerleader Kayla King told WATE.

 

While it is OK for a cheerleader to be a member of the FCA -- I'm assuming there are several, at least when I was in HS in the 90s, the FCA had a ton of athletes in it, from cheerleaders to soccer players who weren't very good like me -- I have a HARD time okaying cheerleaders "making plans" to get together in an alternating circle and citing ANYTHING during a moment of SILENCE.

 

This wasn't a spur of the moment thing. This was a coerced execution of a religious practice.

 

Are we supposed to be making plans for moments of silence now?

Is that what it's come to?

 

Heaven forbid, you know, stand there and be ... ummm ... silent?

Is that too much to ask?

 

Sneeze during a moment of silence or your phone go off and your told to shhh or shut up or you don't care.

But organize a group prayer? Well, that's different.

 

What it is is grandstanding while hiding behind Christianity or using it as a crutch because you don't want to follow a rule or guideline.

 

Even though they were INTENTIONALLY not silent in a "moment of silent", people applauded and they're given publicity for it like they're heroes for rising up against the "man".

See, what it looks like from my view is that you offer exclusions for that type of prayer. If this guy leads it's ok, but if this one does, it's not. Or it's grandstanding because it was a cheerleader, but it might not have been if it was someone else. I just wish that those opposed would either crap or get off the pot. If it's not ok, then it's not ok for anyone. Even when we take a stand we stand like jellyfish.

 

I think it's fully possible that the cheerleaders felt led to do it. You can doubt their motives. Perhaps you're right. However, what if they felt like that was appropriate to honor God in that way? She's not ordained, but was obviously able to recite the thing, so studied up or cultured that way, brainwashed, however you'd like to label it. Ultimately, if the cheerleaders started the prayer, who twisted he arm of those around them to join in? They just as easily could have left them to pray on their own. Just a bunch of lemmings I guess. Could have made them the islands of non-reason.