When I started the thread about the Australian baseball player being killed by the "bored" Oklahoma teens I was unaware that a thread had already been started about it by Clyde, so I'm starting a thread more specifically related to the commentary that I had attached to my now obsolete thread. This incident got me thinking about how a gun might've ended up in the hands of these teens. I have no idea, but my knee-jerk thought is that they perhaps pilfered it from a legally aged owner of it. The following was my thoughts about society's present day obsession with handguns and the thoughts that I had originally place in my other dead thread:

 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but when I was growing up... sure you heard of shootings in the news now and then, very few locally, but mostly it appeared that bigger cities like New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles were where the more threatening issues occurred, but for the most part those average citizens who owned guns had hunting rifles for no other reason than the sport of hunting.

 

The "Right to bear arms" was something we learned in school that was part of our Constitution, but from a historical perspective, it seemed to be placed there during the early part of our country's history when everyone owned a gun as a means to protecting their land or livestock. In the growing urban demographic of the 20th Century, it appeared that having a gun was no longer a necessary thing for the average citizen.

 

During my childhood, I never really ever heard much of the average citizen owing a handgun, and the idea of someone having one conjured up scary thoughts of that person being a bad person or a criminal. It seemed to be an accepted reality that the only trustworthy people with handguns were police officers there to protect us from the random bad person toting one around.

 

Certainly since the 1960's until today there has been a steady increase in crime in the cities and the degeneration of society where more and more thugs perpetrate violence and murder, creating a more unsafe atmosphere for the average law abiding citizens who just want to live free without such threat. Criminals are becoming more and more bold with their relentless tactics which display an absolute complete lack of respect for life, and show no conscience whatsoever.

 

This present day face of crime has given rise to the argument that average citizens deserve the right to be permitted to own a handgun for their protection with the thought that if so many criminals have them then we should as well. It's really hard to argue that point and many folks who might not have ever thought of purchasing a gun before have now done so.

 

Now we've arrived at a time in our history where more and more average citizens, understandably so, own hand guns compared to the 20th century, when in general, that would've been fairly rare.

 

As a direct correlation to this, now more and more children possibly have access to guns considering one might be in their home because their parents purchased one. Society in general is now growing up with the idea that it is commonplace to own a handgun. It's an increasing mindset. It's the new normal so to speak.

 

Is this really what we want in society? I understand the need for protection, but having grown up in a day where handguns were rare, I just have a gut feeling that things are moving in a direction so fast that I personally just don't feel ready for. There's no doubt in my mind that more and more incidents of irrational behavior such as the one in Oklahoma will be on the rise and continue to occur. We've heard of more cases of road rage leading to shootings. I don't have a good answer for it all because the increasing need for protection still is a very valid point. Our culture now has a conundrum or paradox of a situation where the answer to our problems is now creating more problems.

 

At the end of the day I can't help but lean towards thinking that less guns is a better idea than more of them. But then again, not being able to protect ourselves from relentless criminals is not a good idea either.

 

I just don't know??? :no:

I grew up in the late 60's-early 80's we had a handgun in the house the entire time. Pretty much everyone I knew had a handgun in their home.

 

Owning a firearm is about responsibility, but unfortunately society today is getting more and more out of touch with self responsibility.

 

I have no problem with strict background checks for purchasing a firearm of any kind. But no law on the books would have prevented the crime your talking about, that crime says more about society and the breakdown of the American Family than it does firearms ownership.

I grew up in the late 60's-early 80's we had a handgun in the house the entire time. Pretty much everyone I knew had a handgun in their home.

 

Owning a firearm is about responsibility, but unfortunately society today is getting more and more out of touch with self responsibility.

 

I have no problem with strict background checks for purchasing a firearm of any kind. But no law on the books would have prevented the crime your talking about, that crime says more about society and the breakdown of the American Family than it does firearms ownership.

 

Good point.

 

I completely agree with you about strict background checks, and that the Oklahoma crime is more related to the breakdown of the American family.

 

With that said, it creeps me out that the culture we now live in with a crumbling American family is also the culture that has more guns floating around. We don't want guns to get in the wrong hands, but the more we consider it normal, the more people will have guns, and lots of those people undoubtedly have people in their lives that fall through the cracks when background checks are preformed.

 

We can hope that all citizens with guns are responsible with them, but I just think that we're also gonna see more and more people being shot for stupid things like road rage, jealous lovers, and bar fights not to mention legally gun owning parents with psycho maladjusted children.

 

Like I said, I don't have any answers as I see the need for protection. It's just freaking me out a little that so many people with guns is the new normal.

 

It just seems that guns being the answer to our problems are now creating more problems.

Good point.

 

 

Like I said, I don't have any answers as I see the need for protection. It's just freaking me out a little that so many people with guns is the new normal.

It just seems that guns being the answer to our problems are now creating more problems.

 

Its not really a new normal. What is new is the idea that guns are not part of the evolution of the US and that they are not very prevalent in the country.

 

I grew up in a Louisville suburb. Very safe. Very mundane. But we all knew where the .410 shotgun was (loaded) if needed. Working at a local grocery we would unload trucks at 4 a.m. in the morning. A time when bad people did bad things sometimes. So the owner would put a pistol in the stack of bottles and would say - 'If needed - you know where it is'. He assumed we all knew how to shoot - not that we all did. Luckily we never had to exercise it.

 

I had a classmate killed by an uncle one weekend as a junior in 1978. It was a sad Monday. I worked for manager in a high tech firm in Florida in college. He kept 'Roscoe' in the glove box. That was 1982. A manager of a region of fast food establishments always kept a pistol in his car. It was stolen - probably by an employee who was aware he packed. But when he discovered it he had to call into the elementary school and ensure one of his kids did not take it. It was all handled calmly.

 

Guns have been around. They are necessary for a free society. Believing otherwise is to ignore history. Just look at Egypt. The military does what it wants since the people really have no power - because they are disarmed.

We can hope that all citizens with guns are responsible with them, but I just think that we're also gonna see more and more people being shot for stupid things like road rage, jealous lovers, and bar fights not to mention legally gun owning parents with psycho maladjusted children.

 

This part of your post sounds very similar to what many (myself included) were saying in the 90's when KY and numerous other states started to legalize concealed carry. People were saying gun fights would be breaking out in the streets at car wrecks or when tempers flare at other places and concealed carry laws passed, numerous people started to carry and none of our fears came to light for the most part. In the past 20 or so years, my views of gun ownership and gun control have changed drastically. Primarily due to me deciding to research the subject myself and not the overly dramatic media.

 

Statistics prove that licensed law abiding carrying gun owners commit gun crimes at such a small percentage it doesn't even register. Gun crimes are committed by people who do not pay attention to gun control or the law in general, these people are criminals. An interesting fact is that sense the 90's, gun crime has dramatically decreased. Are my asserting that concealed carry is responsible for this? No, but what I can say is that allowing citizens to carry and the increase in hand gun ownership OBVIOUSLY did not increase gun violence like many (I used to be one) said it would. Those who still say that are ignoring or are ignorant of the facts. Unfortunately our media both ignores and is ignorant of the facts.

I saw an interesting statistic that said the US is in the top five per capita for violencent crime in industrialized nations BUT, if you remove four cities (Chicago, Detroit, New York City and I think New Orleans), the US would fall to the bottom five and these four cities (I hope I listed the correct four) have the strictest gun control in the nation. I am trying to find information to verify if this stat is correct.

Its not really a new normal. What is new is the idea that guns are not part of the evolution of the US and that they are not very prevalent in the country.

 

I grew up in a Louisville suburb. Very safe. Very mundane. But we all knew where the .410 shotgun was (loaded) if needed. Working at a local grocery we would unload trucks at 4 a.m. in the morning. A time when bad people did bad things sometimes. So the owner would put a pistol in the stack of bottles and would say - 'If needed - you know where it is'. He assumed we all knew how to shoot - not that we all did. Luckily we never had to exercise it.

 

I had a classmate killed by an uncle one weekend as a junior in 1978. It was a sad Monday. I worked for manager in a high tech firm in Florida in college. He kept 'Roscoe' in the glove box. That was 1982. A manager of a region of fast food establishments always kept a pistol in his car. It was stolen - probably by an employee who was aware he packed. But when he discovered it he had to call into the elementary school and ensure one of his kids did not take it. It was all handled calmly.

 

Guns have been around. They are necessary for a free society. Believing otherwise is to ignore history. Just look at Egypt. The military does what it wants since the people really have no power - because they are disarmed.

Amen to that.

Unfortunately our media both ignores and is ignorant of the facts.

 

ignores - yes

ignorant - probably not. It just does not fit the agenda...

Now that I think about it, there were probably more guns around me in my neighborhood while growing up than I was aware. There's little doubt that my parents tried to shelter me to the best of their ability, creating in me the lack of consciousness that guns were more commonplace than I had realized.

 

My older brother had a hunting rifle, and the next door neighbor boys had a bee bee gun, but outside of that I really can't say for certain what anybody else in the neighborhood had. It's really not anything people would typically broadcast.

 

Looking back, my community was mostly comprised of old school folks whose families had lived there for generations mixed with an influx of newer families that didn't require their children to wear shoes. Their mothers would chase their calloused and soot covered footed kids up the concrete street with a belt screaming at them, while their daddies made their routine visits to the liquor store for their 5th of whiskey.

 

Did these folks own guns? Can't say, but then again it became apparent when the youngest son of the single woman neighbor with 17 children shot and killed a young girl because she didn't "put out". He spent a year in jail and was back on the streets bragging about the whole incident. Few years later he raped a barmaid at closing time at a local corner bar. Not really sure what ever became of him. Last I heard he did earn jail time for that incident, but for how long I do not know.

When I started the thread about the Australian baseball player being killed by the "bored" Oklahoma teens I was unaware that a thread had already been started about it by Clyde, so I'm starting a thread more specifically related to the commentary that I had attached to my now obsolete thread. This incident got me thinking about how a gun might've ended up in the hands of these teens. I have no idea, but my knee-jerk thought is that they perhaps pilfered it from a legally aged owner of it. The following was my thoughts about society's present day obsession with handguns and the thoughts that I had originally place in my other dead thread:

 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but when I was growing up... sure you heard of shootings in the news now and then, very few locally, but mostly it appeared that bigger cities like New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles were where the more threatening issues occurred, but for the most part those average citizens who owned guns had hunting rifles for no other reason than the sport of hunting.

 

The "Right to bear arms" was something we learned in school that was part of our Constitution, but from a historical perspective, it seemed to be placed there during the early part of our country's history when everyone owned a gun as a means to protecting their land or livestock. In the growing urban demographic of the 20th Century, it appeared that having a gun was no longer a necessary thing for the average citizen.

 

During my childhood, I never really ever heard much of the average citizen owing a handgun, and the idea of someone having one conjured up scary thoughts of that person being a bad person or a criminal. It seemed to be an accepted reality that the only trustworthy people with handguns were police officers there to protect us from the random bad person toting one around.

 

Certainly since the 1960's until today there has been a steady increase in crime in the cities and the degeneration of society where more and more thugs perpetrate violence and murder, creating a more unsafe atmosphere for the average law abiding citizens who just want to live free without such threat. Criminals are becoming more and more bold with their relentless tactics which display an absolute complete lack of respect for life, and show no conscience whatsoever.

 

This present day face of crime has given rise to the argument that average citizens deserve the right to be permitted to own a handgun for their protection with the thought that if so many criminals have them then we should as well. It's really hard to argue that point and many folks who might not have ever thought of purchasing a gun before have now done so.

 

Now we've arrived at a time in our history where more and more average citizens, understandably so, own hand guns compared to the 20th century, when in general, that would've been fairly rare.

 

As a direct correlation to this, now more and more children possibly have access to guns considering one might be in their home because their parents purchased one. Society in general is now growing up with the idea that it is commonplace to own a handgun. It's an increasing mindset. It's the new normal so to speak.

 

Is this really what we want in society? I understand the need for protection, but having grown up in a day where handguns were rare, I just have a gut feeling that things are moving in a direction so fast that I personally just don't feel ready for. There's no doubt in my mind that more and more incidents of irrational behavior such as the one in Oklahoma will be on the rise and continue to occur. We've heard of more cases of road rage leading to shootings. I don't have a good answer for it all because the increasing need for protection still is a very valid point. Our culture now has a conundrum or paradox of a situation where the answer to our problems is now creating more problems.

 

At the end of the day I can't help but lean towards thinking that less guns is a better idea than more of them. But then again, not being able to protect ourselves from relentless criminals is not a good idea either.

 

I just don't know??? :no:

 

 

Where I grew up, I didn't realize there were people or households that DIDN"T own guns. I thought EVERYONE had them and just assumed they did, and if someone had have told me then that so and so didn't have a gun in their house, I would have thought that "weird". I grew up in a community where maybe half the cars in the high school parking lot had a gun in it, many proudly displayed in gun racks in the back window of a truck. And no one EVER thought anyone would use one to shoot up a school. I can't imagine growing up in the household you describe insofar as the attitude about guns...and I'm sure the vise versa is true.

Where I grew up I did not no anyone who did not own a gun, knew how to shoot a gun, and could readily access a gun in their home....I also did not know anyone who didn't know their dad, and a mom... No one ever shot anyone either...could just be a coincidence.

Where I grew up I did not no anyone who did not own a gun, knew how to shoot a gun, and could readily access a gun in their home....I also did not know anyone who didn't know their dad, and a mom... No one ever shot anyone either...could just be a coincidence.

Ditto.

Now that I think about it, there were probably more guns around me in my neighborhood while growing up than I was aware. There's little doubt that my parents tried to shelter me to the best of their ability, creating in me the lack of consciousness that guns were more commonplace than I had realized.

 

My older brother had a hunting rifle, and the next door neighbor boys had a bee bee gun, but outside of that I really can't say for certain what anybody else in the neighborhood had. It's really not anything people would typically broadcast.

 

Looking back, my community was mostly comprised of old school folks whose families had lived there for generations mixed with an influx of newer families that didn't require their children to wear shoes. Their mothers would chase their calloused and soot covered footed kids up the concrete street with a belt screaming at them, while their daddies made their routine visits to the liquor store for their 5th of whiskey.

 

Did these folks own guns? Can't say, but then again it became apparent when the youngest son of the single woman neighbor with 17 children shot and killed a young girl because she didn't "put out". He spent a year in jail and was back on the streets bragging about the whole incident. Few years later he raped a barmaid at closing time at a local corner bar. Not really sure what ever became of him. Last I heard he did earn jail time for that incident, but for how long I do not know.

My issue with your story is not about someone using a gun but the fact out legal system was not harsher on that boy for his crime.

My issue with your story is not about someone using a gun but the fact out legal system was not harsher on that boy for his crime.

 

True dat fo sho...

 

His mother was the little old lady who lived in a shoe, and they lived two doors down. He was a couple of years older than me, and during my childhood, my friends and I tried to keep away from him, but at times had the uncomfortable annoyance and being forced to let him "get in" (disrupt,take over) our sports games. It was either that or get beat up by him and his entourage.

 

He was about 20 when he shot and killed the girl, and the year after when he was boasting about it to me and another guy that he got out just as long as he continued to get therapy for sexual addiction. He just laughed the idea of that off like it was a joke and that the system was stupid for buying that it would be a solution.

 

I was dumbfounded that he was even on the street that soon. Thought for sure that murderers got more time than that. Of course, I couldn't question that out loud, and even had to nervously fake it a bit that I was "street". Acting too goody-goody to a character like that could cause me trouble. Acting too "street" wouldn't work with him either, cause being my neighbor, he knew better. The best that I could do, and most certainly now that I was aware that he was free, was to avoid him like the plague.

Where I grew up, I didn't realize there were people or households that DIDN"T own guns. I thought EVERYONE had them and just assumed they did, and if someone had have told me then that so and so didn't have a gun in their house, I would have thought that "weird". I grew up in a community where maybe half the cars in the high school parking lot had a gun in it, many proudly displayed in gun racks in the back window of a truck. And no one EVER thought anyone would use one to shoot up a school. I can't imagine growing up in the household you describe insofar as the attitude about guns...and I'm sure the vise versa is true.

 

When my parents were kids in the 20's and 30's, it's my best assessment from their stories, that the city was a really safe place to live where the community was very close, and big time church goers. Don't think they even locked their doors back then. Neither them, nor many of their neighbors had much of a rural background where guns were as normal as an outhouse. That, I promise is not a knock, just a different experience for them being raised where they were raised. It seems that rural folks are much more familiar with gun ownership as a normal way of life, and if so for no sinister intent in mind, that sounds perfectly acceptable and understandable.

 

It's entirely possible that my lack of seeing guns, other than being sheltered by my folks, and a big dose of the "Andy Griffith Show", was that with their upbringing of no experience with them, they too may have been fairly unaware of their existence around the neighborhood as well.

 

It seems that before the increase of crime in the 60's, the city actually was viewed as a new, safe, clean, and convenient place to live where the rural concerns and ways were fading, and becoming obsolete. When the influx of rural folks headed to the cities for work, I'm guessing that's where some of the friction between the old school city slickers, and the displaced country folk began. I'm going to surmise that the difference in ways of life made the city folk act a bit uppity, and the gelling of the two dynamically different groups together didn't go so swimmingly all of the time.

 

There was no doubt an act of oppression exercised on both black and country folks. Lots of times, I'd imagine, leading to them not finding the jobs in the city that they had hoped, making them poorer than they were when they left the country, and now even understandably angry if they were served attitude about where they came from.

 

The rural folks are the ones that I imagine had the guns in my neighborhood simply because of the norms of their upbringing, and the old school city folks that grew up without them didn't. No problems there until you had someone who was jobless, poor, drunk, and angry.

 

My hometown now, although diverse, has a ton of issues from 5th, 6th, 7th etc... generation descendants (depending on how young someone bared children) of the oppressed, that passed along their anger and welfare mentality. This is now very deeply-rooted and folks today from the country, and city folks who's roots originated from the country years ago, are two very different groups of people with different sets of values, or lack there of. I'd bet a large amount that these city folks of which I speak have absolutely no clue about their roots or sense of tradition to live up to. I see kids with good solid genes, but you can have trouble detecting it by the look of hatred in their eyes.

 

No one chooses their upbringing, and for those that end up leading down ugly paths, I can't help but feel sorry for them. It's easy to point and condemn, but some people never really had a chance. When they commit a crime, society has no other choice but to lock them up, but the crime in their lives started long before they were born. They just inherited it. Free will sounds like a nice thought to hold someone accountable, but truly, programming is a much more powerful agitator of behavior.

 

That was a lot to say with regard to comparing my city upbringing and perception of guns to those on this thread raised rurally, but then again, as y'all might've noticed, I've never been one who's short on words. Thank you for plowing through my in depth dissection, if in fact you actually did.