AMEN to that!!!! The coaching staff at Rockcastle County follows something along those lines and it's done them well for years.

 

 

 

 

 

This is totally bogus. I know that in a pitcher's mind he can throw forever but when his fastball isn't moving like in the first couple innings and his curve or slider doesn't break as much either....THEN IT'S TIME TO TAKE HIS OUT NO MATTER WHAT HE THINKS!!!!

 

I guess this philosophy has gotten Bell County baseball to where it is today.

Bell County baseball has been far from a great program, and during my days there we had some sorry coaches. Maybe that is why I was allowed to pitch as much as I did in my time there. Had I had a better coach, we probably would have had more capable pitchers and I wouldnt have had to pitch as much as I did and perhaps my view would be a bit different. Thats not how it happened and I'm just letting you all know my experience. Again, mechanics and personal conditioning is the difference here. Also, I'm not going to recommend a kid that throws in the 90's and puts that much pressure on his arm to think about doing things the way I did it. I know there are plenty of exceptions, and maybe I'm an extroardinary case, I dont know, but this is how I feel. I threw at least 14 innings a week as a senior usually, and never had any ill effects.

I'm 23, I'm not THAT young. I will clarify some things I've said. I'm basing some of these thoughts on my senior year of high school. I'm 18 years old at the time and am in very good physical condition having just finished basketball and having thrown baseball all year. Also, I believe a kid needs proper mechanics in order to be able to perform at this level over that amount of time. I had the proper mechanics and had myself in shape, and that makes a difference. I played summer ball for teams where it was required that I ice after a game and so on, and did so, and I can say I felt no better the next day necessarily. I realize there are studies on this, and each individual is different. Maybe I overreacted a tad in my post, but I believe that sometimes the caution with arms is taken to extremes that aren't necessary.

....23 is young my friend and most high school age athletes have themselves in some form of shape, while some often lack proper arm strength training, others are in excellent shape and almost all will feel the effects of "pitching", within 2-3 later or the next day.

 

It is an obligation to the young player, to protect his arm and be certain he is not overused....throwing proper pitches, with correct release points, minimal tension on the arm/elbow and balance throughout the motion....one can never be "too extreme" in caring and maintaining an arm.

 

If so, there would be no Rules and mandatory rest requirements, in virtually all levels of play for pitchers.

 

For the record, if you had yourself, your arm and mechanics in perfect shape....you should have thrown much harder than 83.

...You may want to consult with some of those college pitching scouts, professional pitching scouts and experts in the field, before spreading the word of pitching every day....huge difference between "Pitching" and "Throwing" on an every day basis.

 

The mechanics of pitching overhand, is an unnatural motion for the arm and the best mechanics in the world, will not limit the soreness, broken blood vessels and strain from pitching....not even close.

 

Throwing to strengthen an arm is done, via programs, long toss, conditioning and flexibility drills. Pitchers have sore arms, regardless of mechanics but often as a result of bad mechanics.

 

As for the last sentence, the pitcher knows his body and arm....but someone is responsible for that arm, a parent and more importantly...a knowledgeable coach.

I would recommend not speaking to me like I've never seen a baseball field, baseball, or a pitcher's mound in my life. I've probably spent more time there than you have.

I'm not spreading any word, I'm conveying personal experience and letting people know that everything is not set in stone, and every kid is different.

I would recommend not speaking to me like I've never seen a baseball field, baseball, or a pitcher's mound in my life. I've probably spent more time there than you have.

I'm not spreading any word, I'm conveying personal experience and letting people know that everything is not set in stone, and every kid is different.

...Oh don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not speaking to you like you've never seen a Baseball field, it is obvious you have....I'm also not attempting to hide how strongly I disagree with you on your views on pitchers either....your personal experience is great for you but "pitch count should fly with you" and anyone recommending and overseeing pitchers in the game of Baseball.

 

As for spending more time on as Baseball field or pitchers mound than myself, comeback with that comment in about 15 more years, than you and I will have something in common to discuss about Baseball and Pitching..... :thumb:

....23 is young my friend and most high school age athletes have themselves in some form of shape, while some often lack proper arm strength training, others are in excellent shape and almost all will feel the effects of "pitching", within 2-3 later or the next day.

 

It is an obligation to the young player, to protect his arm and be certain he is not overused....throwing proper pitches, with correct release points, minimal tension on the arm/elbow and balance throughout the motion....one can never be "too extreme" in caring and maintaining an arm.

 

If so, there would be no Rules and mandatory rest requirements, in virtually all levels of play for pitchers.

 

For the record, if you had yourself, your arm and mechanics in perfect shape....you should have thrown much harder than 83.

Did I say perfect? I dont remember doing that, so I will ignore that. I was in very good shape though. Why didn't I throw harder than 83. Probably b/c I spent a lot of time in the cage, fielding ground balls, and other such intangibles, because I wanted to play everyday and not every 4th or 5th day past high school. Maybe b/c all my time wasnt spent on baseball. I played different sports year round. Basketball, golf, and tennis.

What do you attribute my experience of being able to pitch as much as I did to? I see where your stance is and know you are not moving, but do you feel as though I have come on this thread and told all out lies about my pitching days? I'll be interested to find this out if you even acknowledge it.

I would recommend not speaking to me like I've never seen a baseball field, baseball, or a pitcher's mound in my life. I've probably spent more time there than you have.I'm not spreading any word, I'm conveying personal experience and letting people know that everything is not set in stone, and every kid is different.

 

As for the bold part of your post, I seriously doubt however that is completely irrelevant. Do you think those professors and Dr's who performed the multiple studies have ever been on a mound before? I highly doubt it. However, they are far more knowledgeable than you or I about the risks and consequences of pitching without properly taking care of your body. The difference is that Strike3, Play 2 Win and myself adhere to their advice while you say we're "babying" them. Fortunately, from where we stand our kids will be in good hands.

 

I'll add this, if you could've done that your senior year well...bravo. However, if you would've gone to college and played baseball like you said you could've, you're pitching coach would've laughed at you if you would've asked to pitch the day after throwing over 100 pitches. Also, if you would've told them you don't need to run, long toss, etc.; you wouldn't have been on the team long.

Did I say perfect? I don't remember doing that, so I will ignore that. I was in very good shape though. Why didn't I throw harder than 83. Probably b/c I spent a lot of time in the cage, fielding ground balls, and other such intangibles, because I wanted to play everyday and not every 4th or 5th day past high school. Maybe b/c all my time wasn't spent on baseball. I played different sports year round. Basketball, golf, and tennis.

What do you attribute my experience of being able to pitch as much as I did to? I see where your stance is and know you are not moving, but do you feel as though I have come on this thread and told all out lies about my pitching days? I'll be interested to find this out if you even acknowledge it.

...I have never met you and I'm going to offer the following, as a potential reason to your lack of soreness in your arm.

 

I would imagine when playing you were 6-0 to 6-2 range, approximately 170-185lbs and low body fat, with lean/muscular build. Obviously by your posts, active in other sports and a very good athlete.

 

Athletes with low body fat and long/lean muscles, burn up less oxygen which is a major reason for arm stiffness, since blood flow is being restricted in larger muscle type bodies. Metabolism is also way to recover quickly, since the body constantly needs carbohydrates and liquids to replenish itself. Certain types of juice are natural anitinflamatories, which also accelerate the recovery time of inflamed joints.

 

I may be entirely wrong about you, in this description and I'll let you reply.

As for the bold part of your post, I seriously doubt however that is completely irrelevant. Do you think those professors and Dr's who performed the multiple studies have ever been on a mound before? I highly doubt it. However, they are far more knowledgeable than you or I about the risks and consequences of pitching without properly taking care of your body. The difference is that Strike3, Play 2 Win and myself adhere to their advice while you say we're "babying" them. Fortunately, from where we stand our kids will be in good hands.

 

I'll add this, if you could've done that your senior year well...bravo. However, if you would've gone to college and played baseball like you said you could've, you're pitching coach would've laughed at you if you would've asked to pitch the day after throwing over 100 pitches. Also, if you would've told them you don't need to run, long toss, etc.; you wouldn't have been on the team long.

What I feel is the babying is the constant pitch counts, jackets, icing, etc. Attention to the arm for hours at a time is not necessary. Like I said I've done the icing stuff before in summer ball for guys that were real coaches, but I wouldnt leave my arm in the tire for more than 20 minutes or something. Anything more doesnt really help that much. I'm not going to push my kid to do like I did, because like I said, every person is different. Some people do need the "babying" because their arm just isnt in the condition to do it otherwise. I'll teach my kid proper mechanics and such, but I'm not going to tell him I expect him to throw the amount of innings I did my senior year.

I wouldn't have expected my college coach to allow that. Like I said my high school coaches were idiots. They really had no business being a high school baseball coach. I was able to do what I did b/c we had few options, I felt I could do the job, and if we wanted to win, I gave us a better chance than our other pitchers.

I never said I didnt need to run. I ran after every game, especially after every outing on the mound. I did everything I needed to do keep my body and arm in the condition it needed to be in to go out and pitch the innings I needed to. I may not have iced my arm as much as the next person or worn a jacket between innings, but I was ready to go. I'm as coachable as most people, and believe I would have been on the team. It just wasnt what was best for me when I left high school.

...I have never met you and I'm going to offer the following, as a potential reason to your lack of soreness in your arm.

 

I would imagine when playing you were 6-0 to 6-2 range, approximately 170-185lbs and low body fat, with lean/muscular build. Obviously by your posts, active in other sports and a very good athlete.

 

Athletes with low body fat and long/lean muscles, burn up less oxygen which is a major reason for arm stiffness, since blood flow is being restricted in larger muscle type bodies. Metabolism is also way to recover quickly, since the body constantly needs carbohydrates and liquids to replenish itself. Certain types of juice are natural anitinflamatories, which also accelerate the recovery time of inflamed joints.

 

I may be entirely wrong about you, in this description and I'll let you reply.

Pretty close. I was about 6' 185-190 in my playing days. Not on the lean side really, but muscular build, at least in the legs and upper body. From there on, you seem to have some knowledge about the body, so I will take your word for all that. I'm a business guy. :thumb:

Great debate going on here.

 

My views are the same as Strike3 and Sticky's. A pitcher can't pitch everyday, unless he's a closer. And the last time I checked, there aren't that many closer's in HS baseball, and still, I wouldn't let them pitch every day.

 

Icing, conditioning, workouts, running, and mechanics are essential to a pitcher. If he doesn't do these things, Tommy John surgery may be in his future.

 

Any young pitcher's out there needs to heed Strike3's words and click on those links that he posted earlier.

Pretty close. I was about 6' 185-190 in my playing days. Not on the lean side really, but muscular build, at least in the legs and upper body. From there on, you seem to have some knowledge about the body, so I will take your word for all that. I'm a business guy. :thumb:

Honestly, it sounds in your description you both pitched and played an every day position, as do most but not all High School age pitchers.

 

You would agree, that loosening the arm up for Pitching, is not the same when playing a daily position, beyond the long tossing and warm-up tosses, since the pitching motion involves a lot of lower body muscles, hips, thighs and lower back, where as the throwing motion for an infielder is more of a short-arm, crow hop type throw.

What I feel is the babying is the constant pitch counts, jackets, icing, etc. Attention to the arm for hours at a time is not necessary. Like I said I've done the icing stuff before in summer ball for guys that were real coaches, but I wouldnt leave my arm in the tire for more than 20 minutes or something. Anything more doesnt really help that much. I'm not going to push my kid to do like I did, because like I said, every person is different. Some people do need the "babying" because their arm just isnt in the condition to do it otherwise. I'll teach my kid proper mechanics and such, but I'm not going to tell him I expect him to throw the amount of innings I did my senior year.

I wouldn't have expected my college coach to allow that. Like I said my high school coaches were idiots. They really had no business being a high school baseball coach. I was able to do what I did b/c we had few options, I felt I could do the job, and if we wanted to win, I gave us a better chance than our other pitchers.

I never said I didnt need to run. I ran after every game, especially after every outing on the mound. I did everything I needed to do keep my body and arm in the condition it needed to be in to go out and pitch the innings I needed to. I may not have iced my arm as much as the next person or worn a jacket between innings, but I was ready to go. I'm as coachable as most people, and believe I would have been on the team. It just wasnt what was best for me when I left high school.

 

Well, they (and you) sure did get lucky because if you were my kid and did this and suffered some type of injury I would've gone ballistic. A lot of the affects will not show up right away. I didn't properly take care of my shoulder when I was younger and I did a lot of damage to it because of that. For every one of you there's probably 15 of me. It may take a while to realize how stupid you were.(Or until you drop your 15 month old child because you lost feeling in your arm.) :irked:

I'm essentially from the new school, as I just finished playing high school baseball about 4 or 5 years ago, and I believe in many cases we are babying pitchers too much. Even though I dont really think I was supposed to, I could come out and throw 7 innings three games a week and never feel any ill effects from it. I rarely iced my arm, rarely put on a jacket or attempted to make myself any different from my teammates. It's necessary for a pitcher to be up and supporting his teammates between innings, and not sitting around with his arms crossed in a jacket. The best way to condition your arm? Throw pitches. This pitch count stuff doesn't fly with me. I know when I'm tired, and that is time to come out. Do you barely believe in anyone pitching a complete game in high school? In April a kid should be ready to throw some complete games, and you have these guys throwing 10 or fewer pitches an inning, which is not likely to happen unless you have unbelievable control. Don't want a kid throwing breaking pitches? How else is a kid going to develop this pitch if they dont use it. You didnt hear of these guys back 20 or 30 years ago having all the arm problems they do now, and its due to the fact that we have set something scientifically about everyone, and everyone is not the same. Let the kids pitch, when he gets tired take him out. If you work out and get your arm and body in good shape, you can pitch every day if you want. Thats my thoughts on it.

 

For the most part, I agree with a lot of what you said. I definitely wouldn't pitch 7 innings, 3 times a week, but I do think you should come out of the game when you are ready, but it is a coach's judgement to determine if he really needs to come out. Most kids will say they aren't tired whne they truly are and then injuries occur. I don't think there should be an exact pitch limit. I believe pitch count should be used as a guideline to give a coach an idea of where his pitcher's arm is in terms of fatigue. If a pitcher's count is near 95 or so, it is near time to take him out. If he is on a roll, let him throw a few more pitches or get a few more outs. If he is beginning to struggle, go with a fresh arm. Your bullpen should always be active whne a pitcher gets around 85 pitches or have a pitcher ready to go if the current one gets in trouble.

For the most part, I agree with a lot of what you said. I definitely wouldn't pitch 7 innings, 3 times a week, but I do think you should come out of the game when you are ready, but it is a coach's judgement to determine if he really needs to come out. Most kids will say they aren't tired whne they truly are and then injuries occur. I don't think there should be an exact pitch limit. I believe pitch count should be used as a guideline to give a coach an idea of where his pitcher's arm is in terms of fatigue. If a pitcher's count is near 95 or so, it is near time to take him out. If he is on a roll, let him throw a few more pitches or get a few more outs. If he is beginning to struggle, go with a fresh arm. Your bullpen should always be active whne a pitcher gets around 85 pitches or have a pitcher ready to go if the current one gets in trouble.

 

There are pitch counts for a reason. It helps the coach to keep count on the pitches that the pitcher has thrown so that he doesn't destroy his arm.

 

If anyone with this mentality wants to pitch beyond HS, you better listen to the coach when he says it's time to come out and ice the arm.

From experience, I was a player in high school that would pitch anytime a coach would ask or I would even volunteer. I too played a position the day after I would pitch and icy hot was my best friend back then. There was even a day when I threw over 300 pitches in one day during a double header, which I would never recommend, but since I was extremely competetive and wanted to win, I still did it. I was like every other kid and would tell the coach my arm didn't hurt, but now that I am 35, I wake up some mornings and can barely move my shoulder. Coaches do need to keep tabs on pitch count, but they also can help pitchers out by keeping their arms in tip top shape by long tossing, stretching, and running. These 3 things are very important to an arm, no matter what a kid thinks.