Don't mean to take sides but, Dang, 13th analyst, you're pretty good! Lawyer? Accountant? KHSAA employee? Sports Writer? I don't know, but definitely didn't just fall off the turnip wagon.

Years 13th vs 12th

1999/2000 21-14

2000/2001 27-22

2001/2002 23-23

2002/2003 16-29

2003/2004 22-19

2004/2005 20-25

 

Since 2002/2003, the 12th region has won about 55% of the games, so your analogy of 6 out of 10 doesn't even work. More like, if they were to play ten times today, 12th would win half. Ten times tomorrow, 12th would win one more than the 13th. Ten times two days from now, the 12th would only win half again.

 

Therefore, is the talent level in the region that much different??

 

As a whole.... no not alot of difference, but still the advantage goes to the 12th...... but we are talking HS here, you arent gonna have a huge difference from top to bottom. But you take the 12th's top 5 teams from those years you mentioned..... match them up against the 13th's top 5 teams from those years and what you get is the 12th coming away. SL is proving that right now! The state rankings from those years prove that! You cant argue that point!

 

Why wont some ppl on this board just admit that SL has played against stiffer competition then any of the other teams in the 13th region? It blows my mind. SL could schedule the top 25 in HS basketball and some 13th region supporters on here would try to argue that they didnt play toughter competition!

ukbellco14 says:

"I dont think anyone can argue that he can shoot the 3 ball as good as anyone in the state...... nor can they argue that he can handle the ball extremely well and is extremely quick and athletic. I have always said this! No skin off my back for that.

 

However Howard put it best whenever he said..... one man isnt going to beat you. This is exactly what I have said all along. Everyone acts like Miller is a one man show..... but he isnt. He is very 1 dimensional in the fact that all he can really do is shoot the 3. He isnt going to play lock down defense and he is going to make some bad decisions."

 

SKINPIG says: Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth! You make the first statement in bold then you come with next statement in bold. You seem to like giving ppl instructions on how to make their point, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are killing me.

Years 13th vs 12th

1999/2000 21-14

2000/2001 27-22

2001/2002 23-23

2002/2003 16-29

2003/2004 22-19

2004/2005 20-25

 

Since 2002/2003, the 12th region has won about 55% of the games, so your analogy of 6 out of 10 doesn't even work. More like, if they were to play ten times today, 12th would win half. Ten times tomorrow, 12th would win one more than the 13th. Ten times two days from now, the 12th would only win half again.

 

Therefore, is the talent level in the region that much different??

 

I researched Corbin's record against the 12th region from the 1997-98 season through the 2004-05 season. Corbin won 28 and lost 16 games during this period, with most of the games coming against the cream of the crop of the 12th region(South Laurel, Wayne Co., Somerset, North Laurel and Pulaski Co).

 

South Laurel was obviously much better than everyone else in the 13th(and the 12th region)last year and Wayne Co. was also the previous year, but there have been several times that the 13th region has had a dominant team(though it has been a few years, not including this year), the 12th and the 13th region have been virtually even in strength for many years.

 

I would say that you are right on the money in your post.

13th Analyst: Howard played mostly JV last year. He may have averaged three minutes a game with the varsity, at most.

WOW!! Where do I begin with this statement?? First of all, this quote:

 

"North Laurel senior forward Justin Howard drew the unenviable task of trying to slow down Miller.

 

“That's the toughest player I've ever had to guard,” Howard said. “He can pull from anywhere and go off the dribble.”"

 

is coming from a guy who has faced South Laurel (Proffitt), Hazard, Ballard, Trinity, Ashland Blazer, Bryan Station, and Madison Southern this season.

 

A player who last year faced the likes of Lexington Catholic (23-8), West Jessamine (22-7), South Laurel (32-4), DuPont Manuel (24-7), Muhlenburg North (23-7), Bryan Station (24-8), Clay County (21-8) to name a few.

 

The kid has faced off with Proffitt 12 times for goodness sakes. He's played Oak Hill twice. And he came away from his game with Middlesboro saying Miller is the toughest player he has ever guarded. I think that is a little more of a compliment than you are making it out to be.

 

"Everyone acts like Miller is a one man show..... but he isnt. He is very 1 dimensional in the fact that all he can really do is shoot the 3."

 

Actually I think that Miller being a one man show for Middlesboro is exactly what they are saying. He said one man can't beat you, meaning that even though Miller is nearly unstoppable at scoring, the rest of the players have to be good enough as well for the team to have a chance at winning. The fact that they don't have anyone else capable, labels this team as truly, a "one man show".

 

"Most teams put their best man on him and occasionally double him...... hope that that can slow him down a little..... and then play solid defense across the board."

 

Being man-up against the opponents best defender and then another player sounds to me like some pretty intense defense. Especially in a region who always produces great point guards. I also think this compliments Miller because in spite of every team doing all of this, he always comes away shooting about 40 percent from the 3 (which is great for a high school player) and scoring his 25-30 points a game.

"The NL staff and Howard both knew this and they played him exactly the way most teams play him......... Let Miller have his 30+, but contain him enough to where he doesnt beat you on his own, play solid defense on the rest of the M'boro squad and you walk away with a win."

 

Let Miller have his 30+ but contain him enough to where he doesn't beat you on his own?? First of all, 30+ is really contained. Second of all, if you are giving up 30 to him saying that you are containing him enough to where he doesn't beat you on his own, you are conceding to the fact that the boy is very capable of putting up 50 points in one outing. I don't care how many times you shoot the rock, in high school, if you score 50 points, you are a man amongst boys. Period.

 

I dont think you are getting the whole team aspect too clearly. I am conceding the fact that if you allow Miller to score 30-40 points and play solid defense on the rest of the team, then you will come away with the win, due to the fact that he is surrounded by zero talent.

 

"Also.... M'boro was 1 for 6 in the third..... probably just as bad in the 4th..... and Miller probably took most of those shots and didnt even take the final shot for the Jackets. Not very clutch if you ask me"

 

Is this pure hypothetical or what?? Do you actually have a clue how the shots broke down or are you just construing this stat to be the only one that goes in your favor??? You keep bashing the boy for being selfish but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either he passes the ball to other players when they are open (being "not very clutch as you would say), or he puts up a shot with two men on him.

 

The article says

"He didn't have an opportunity to take the last shot for the Jackets, however, as the Jags double-teamed Miller over the final 20 seconds"

 

Tell me, what is the cardinal rule on offense when you notice that you are being double teamed??? If you are double teamed, that means someone else is wide open. Call the boy un-clutch for finding the open man if you want and not forcing a three with two men in his face.

 

I would agree...... Miller is a better shooter then Proffitt, and therefore tougher to guard then Proffitt. I have never said anything other then that. And no.... I dont think I am underestimating Howard's compliment considering the kid just got 34 points layed on him...... I think that right after a game like that I'd be saying the same thing about whoever toasted me. I doubt Howard was really considering all the great players he has played in the heat of an interview, and was simply being a good sport and giving Miller his props. Vouch..... Miller I'm sure is one of the toughest, if not the toughest, that Howard has ever guarded, but please lets remember that alot of people say alot of things after they get 34 points pasted on them.

 

By one man show I simply meant that he isnt going to beat you on his own! He isnt Kobe Bryant, AI, or MJ. He is a one man scoring machine...... yes I agree..... but a one man show to me = a player who can absolutely take over a game and win it almost single handily, and Miller obviously doest do that.

 

I would agree with you once again....... Miller does draw the teams best defender and an OCCASIONAL double team because he is such a skilled shooter..... but its not like he is getting triple teamed like some on this board like to think...... not is it like he is double teamed the entire night like some on this board like to think. Everyone wants to hype Miller up by saying he is scoring 30+ with 3 guys on him, but he isnt. He is scoring 30 + with the same defense any other teams best shooter would get from an opponent. And yes....... 30+ for Miller is containing him because if you just let him shoot and shoot and shoot he will score 40 or more because he will be taking shots all night long.

 

Which brings me to my next point...... I totally understand Miller is surrounded by zilch talent, and I am pretty sure I understand the whole team concept....... and that is why if Miller was surrounded by more talent he would not be putting up the numbers that he does because other players would be getting the rock and scoring as well. Miller is M'boro's only offensive threat and therefore he is going to rack up the stats. Put him on a team that has 5 other capable scorers who can lead their team in scoring on any given night and I guarantee you that Miller doesnt score as much simply because he would not be taking as many shots.

 

As far as the final stats...... the paper says that in the "pivotal 3rd quarter" M'boro was 1 for 6 from 3 land. I didnt just make that up. Now they may have shot better in the 4th, they may not have....... but I do know that Miller PROBABLY took the majority of those shots in the 3rd quarter. To me that is not CLUTCH.

 

About the last shot...... I have never once said Miller was "selfish"..... only that occasionally he hurts his team because he continues to fire shots when he knows he isnt hot, instead of dishing it off. About being CLUTCH...... I agree Miller in theory should have passed the ball off to his teammate considering he was double teamed and his team mate had hit 5 threes of his own that night..... however thats in theory. I was watching Sportcenter yesterday morning and the commentators were having this same discussion about Lebron James. This exact same scenario happend to Lebron 2 nights ago and he did what Miller did..... however I will say exactly what those commentators said...... I dont want anyone but my BEST player taking that final shot, I dont care if he has 5 guys on him. It is not a matter of what is best in that scenario but a matter of by LEADER being willing to put the game on his shoulders. If Miller wasnt willing to take that shot and instead wanted to pass it off then he isnt CLUTCH...... PERIOD!

ukbellco14 says:

"I dont think anyone can argue that he can shoot the 3 ball as good as anyone in the state...... nor can they argue that he can handle the ball extremely well and is extremely quick and athletic. I have always said this! No skin off my back for that.

 

However Howard put it best whenever he said..... one man isnt going to beat you. This is exactly what I have said all along. Everyone acts like Miller is a one man show..... but he isnt. He is very 1 dimensional in the fact that all he can really do is shoot the 3. He isnt going to play lock down defense and he is going to make some bad decisions."

 

SKINPIG says: Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth! You make the first statement in bold then you come with next statement in bold. You seem to like giving ppl instructions on how to make their point, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are killing me.

 

Dont see how anything I said in the bolded statements is contradictory. His quickness and ball handling ability allows him to be a great shooter because not only can he knock down the open 3 but he can create his own shot. He is still 1 dimensional. How is what I said that you bolded contradictory? Please explain.

I researched Corbin's record against the 12th region from the 1997-98 season through the 2004-05 season. Corbin won 28 and lost 16 games during this period, with most of the games coming against the cream of the crop of the 12th region(South Laurel, Wayne Co., Somerset, North Laurel and Pulaski Co).

 

South Laurel was obviously much better than everyone else in the 13th(and the 12th region)last year and Wayne Co. was also the previous year, but there have been several times that the 13th region has had a dominant team(though it has been a few years, not including this year), the 12th and the 13th region have been virtually even in strength for many years.

 

I would say that you are right on the money in your post.

 

As a whole..... the 12th still has a slight advantage.... but if you take the top 5 from each region...... the 12th walks away. The 12th is the better region.... why do 13th supporters refuse to acknowledge that?

Dont see how anything I said in the bolded statements is contradictory. His quickness and ball handling ability allows him to be a great shooter because not only can he knock down the open 3 but he can create his own shot. He is still 1 dimensional. How is what I said that you bolded contradictory? Please explain.

 

As PIGHEADED as I am, I know that it would be impossible to explain it in a way you would understand. :irked: Wouldn't being an extremely good shooter be one dimension, wouldn't being an extremely good ball handler be one too? How about ones athletic ability, that seems to be a dimension of a basketball player. Like I said, IMPOSSIBLE!!

As PIGHEADED as I am, I know that it would be impossible to explain it in a way you would understand. :irked: Wouldn't being an extremely good shooter be one dimension, wouldn't being an extremely good ball handler be one too? How about ones athletic ability, that seems to be a dimension of a basketball player. Like I said, IMPOSSIBLE!!

 

 

Uhmmmmm...... no, not neccessarily...... I know alot of great athletes that are terrible basketball players, so his athletic ability really means nothing in terms of his ability on the court except that it allows him to be a great shooter. He doesnt use that athleticism to play defense or do other things, but simply to get open to shoot. If he used that athletic ability to be a great rebounder, great defender, great passer etc etc etc then I would agree with you. But he doesnt.

 

As far as his ball handling skills.... you have a good point, that could be a talent that would make him not one dimensional..... but once again, he rarely uses his ability to handle the ball well for anything but to get himself open off the dribble and shoot.

 

If you ask me, shooting, regardless of how you use your talents to do it (such as ball handling and athleticism), is just one dimension. Another dimension would be something like being a great defender, or great rebounder, or great passer, or a great ball handler (which he is, but as I have already pointed out he uses that skill for nothing more than to get open and shoot.)

 

Dont get me wrong...... Miller does other things well too....... but I promise you that when a coach is breaking down Miller they see ONE thing..... a GREAT SHOOTER. They arent worried that he is going to get 5 steals, they arent worried that he is gonna pull down 10 rebounds, they arent worried he is going to have 12 assists (although he may do all those things because he is capable)........ no they are worried that he is going to shoot the lights out. That is why he is 1 dimensional. I am not saying that he doesnt have the skill or ability to change the fact that he is ONLY a great shooter, because he has all the potential in the world to become a more complete player.... but I am saying that right now when a coach looks at Miller they are worried about one thing, his shooting ability, because that is the only way he can hurt you. If you stop him from scoring or he isnt hot........ he isnt going to do anything else to help his team or to hurt yours....... so yes thats 1 dimensional to me.

Uhmmmmm...... no, not neccessarily...... I know alot of great athletes that are terrible basketball players, so his athletic ability really means nothing in terms of his ability on the court except that it allows him to be a great shooter. He doesnt use that athleticism to play defense or do other things, but simply to get open to shoot. If he used that athletic ability to be a great rebounder, great defender, great passer etc etc etc then I would agree with you. But he doesnt.

 

As far as his ball handling skills.... you have a good point, that could be a talent that would make him not one dimensional..... but once again, he rarely uses his ability to handle the ball well for anything but to get himself open off the dribble and shoot.

 

If you ask me, shooting, regardless of how you use your talents to do it (such as ball handling and athleticism), is just one dimension. Another dimension would be something like being a great defender, or great rebounder, or great passer, or a great ball handler (which he is, but as I have already pointed out he uses that skill for nothing more than to get open and shoot.)

 

Dont get me wrong...... Miller does other things well too....... but I promise you that when a coach is breaking down Miller they see ONE thing..... a GREAT SHOOTER. They arent worried that he is going to get 5 steals, they arent worried that he is gonna pull down 10 rebounds, they arent worried he is going to have 12 assists (although he may do all those things because he is capable)........ no they are worried that he is going to shoot the lights out. That is why he is 1 dimensional. I am not saying that he doesnt have the skill or ability to change the fact that he is ONLY a great shooter, because he has all the potential in the world to become a more complete player.... but I am saying that right now when a coach looks at Miller they are worried about one thing, his shooting ability, because that is the only way he can hurt you. If you stop him from scoring or he isnt hot........ he isnt going to do anything else to help his team or to hurt yours....... so yes thats 1 dimensional to me.

 

You are going to make the United States a great president some day.

Howard gave Miller a great compliment. However, Justin became a varsity starter for the first time this year. Also, Justin was not assigned to Proffitt as that duty fell to either Carson or Allen depending on their defensive alignments.

 

But if Justin said this about Miller, then Miller definitely earned his respect.

As a whole..... the 12th still has a slight advantage.... but if you take the top 5 from each region...... the 12th walks away. The 12th is the better region.... why do 13th supporters refuse to acknowledge that?

 

Isn't that top heavy though, as I mentioned earlier, which you also criticized??

 

"I would assume that those years are probably the 12th region top heavy years you are referring too, and that '99-'02 just help give the 13th region a few more wins since at that time the two regions were fairly similiar in terms of talent. So in closing on this topic.... yes the 12th region as of recently has been much better then the 13th region, so please just admit it!" ukbellco14

 

So which is it going to be?? Are we going to compare the whole region or just the top 5??

 

4chs, I did notice that Corbin was racking up quite a few wins against these opponents and was going to make a statement about it but ran out of time. They have more than held their own against the fiercest of 12th region competitors.

 

"Dont see how anything I said in the bolded statements is contradictory. His quickness and ball handling ability allows him to be a great shooter because not only can he knock down the open 3 but he can create his own shot. He is still 1 dimensional. How is what I said that you bolded contradictory? Please explain." ukbellco14

 

Because being a great ball handler (getting the ball down court and getting good passes off), being very quick and athletic, and shooting well from anywhere isn't really one dimensional. Sounds like a pretty good player to me.

 

"I would agree...... Miller is a better shooter then Proffitt, and therefore tougher to guard then Proffitt. I have never said anything other then that. And no.... I dont think I am underestimating Howard's compliment considering the kid just got 34 points layed on him...... I think that right after a game like that I'd be saying the same thing about whoever toasted me. I doubt Howard was really considering all the great players he has played in the heat of an interview, and was simply being a good sport and giving Miller his props. Vouch..... Miller I'm sure is one of the toughest, if not the toughest, that Howard has ever guarded, but please lets remember that alot of people say alot of things after they get 34 points pasted on them."ukbellco14

 

Yeah I'm sure that when AI's defender says he was the best player he has ever had to guard after a game in which AI scored 35 for the 10th time of the season, he forgot about everyone else he has played. Believe me, I used to be a baseball player and don't think that I don't remember the unreal pitchers I faced in my day very distinctively. Howard remembered those players he faced I'm sure. You say that you would be doing the same thing but seriously, how many guys in high school basketball put up 35 points in a game?? It isn't like it is an everyday occurence for these guys and if it was, Howard wouldn't be starting on his team because he is such a poor defensive player.

 

 

"As far as the final stats...... the paper says that in the "pivotal 3rd quarter" M'boro was 1 for 6 from 3 land. I didnt just make that up. Now they may have shot better in the 4th, they may not have....... but I do know that Miller PROBABLY took the majority of those shots in the 3rd quarter."ukbellco14

 

Like I said, pure speculation on your part. You have not clue if he did or not which is why you are saying probably. I could answer back with a speculation of my own in saying that because they weren't too efficient in that quarter, Miller PROBABLY didn't take the shots considering he is one of the most efficient 3-point shooters in the state. Don't try to pawn your comments off like facts when they aren't at all.

 

 

If Miller would have kept the ball and shot with two guys in his face and missed it, I'm sure we would be hearing something from you about his ill-advised shots and what not. The kid can't win to you. He does one thing, you give him a hard time, he does another, you still criticize him. I could decide to give Proffitt a hard time by saying he isn't offensively capable to take it to the next level. You would argue that he is but he isn't in the right system to perform these offensive skills for everyone. I would answer back, perhaps Miller isn't in the right system to showcase anything more than ball handling and scoring.

Isn't that top heavy though, as I mentioned earlier, which you also criticized??

So which is it going to be?? Are we going to compare the whole region or just the top 5?? 13th analyst

 

I thought you meant some top heavy years....... not top heavy teams.

I dont really care which one we argue because either way the 12th region has the winning record..... I dont care if its by 1 or 100...... if I'm playing you and I beat you more then I lose to you then I'm better. More wins then losses = better. I was just simply pointing out that even though the 12th region had only a slight advantage over the 13th in terms of total wins and losses, they're best is obviously better then the 13th's best.

 

Because being a great ball handler (getting the ball down court and getting good passes off), being very quick and athletic, and shooting well from anywhere isn't really one dimensional. Sounds like a pretty good player to me. 13 analyst

 

He is a pretty good player... but not a very complete player. Read my response to SKINPIG about his comment since I dont feel the need to repost my explanation here. You must have some sorta problem with me or something to be criticizing posts that arent even directed to you.

 

Yeah I'm sure that when AI's defender says he was the best player he has ever had to guard after a game in which AI scored 35 for the 10th time of the season, he forgot about everyone else he has played. Believe me, I used to be a baseball player and don't think that I don't remember the unreal pitchers I faced in my day very distinctively. Howard remembered those players he faced I'm sure. You say that you would be doing the same thing but seriously, how many guys in high school basketball put up 35 points in a game?? It isn't like it is an everyday occurence for these guys and if it was, Howard wouldn't be starting on his team because he is such a poor defensive player. 13 analyst

 

Once again...... I give Miller his props.... so relax. However as it has already been pointed out, Howard just became a starter this season, and hasnt guarded all the great talent that you assumed he had. Nor has he guarded Proffitt, so your comparison there falls short. I wouldnt put to much in to what Howard said because of his lack of experience. And comparing what AI's competition says about him to what Howard said about Miller is completely crazy.

 

Like I said, pure speculation on your part. You have not clue if he did or not which is why you are saying probably. I could answer back with a speculation of my own in saying that because they weren't too efficient in that quarter, Miller PROBABLY didn't take the shots considering he is one of the most efficient 3-point shooters in the state. Don't try to pawn your comments off like facts when they aren't at all.

 

If Miller would have kept the ball and shot with two guys in his face and missed it, I'm sure we would be hearing something from you about his ill-advised shots and what not. The kid can't win to you. He does one thing, you give him a hard time, he does another, you still criticize him. I could decide to give Proffitt a hard time by saying he isn't offensively capable to take it to the next level. You would argue that he is but he isn't in the right system to perform these offensive skills for everyone. I would answer back, perhaps Miller isn't in the right system to showcase anything more than ball handling and scoring. 13 analyst

 

In a situation like that...... you are right, I wouldnt have called him shooting that shot while being double teamed ill advised, but I would have also called it gutsy and clutch. Being clutch isnt about being smart or making the shot.... its about being willing to take it, and he passed on it. When I talk about his ill advised shots I am not talkin about last second game winners because in that type of a situation the rules change. Any person who has played sports and had the ball in their hands with the game on the line in the last seconds knows that.

 

You are right..... it was pure speculation, and I never tryed to pass off those comments as facts. That is why I used the word PROBABLY! LOL. You could be totally right as well and I wont deny that......you need to relax man...... having a bad day or something.

 

 

My whole problem with what alot of you 13th region supporters say is that, you refuse to see it from the other side or even admit when you could possibly be wrong. I give Miller all the props he deserves, but I criticize where I see him as being weak. If I make a mistake I apologize and correct it, or give you your props when you make a reasonable, arguable point. On the other hand I never once here a nice thing said about Proffitt from any Miller supporters. They act as if Proffitt is a second rate player compared to Miller and try to talk away all of his accomplishments by crediting his acheivements to Proffitts team. Yet when I even try to say Proffitt is the better PG I get bombarded! The same goes when comparing the 2 regions. I mean for crying out loud........ someone posted a stat that showed that the 12th region was over .550 against 13th region competition, but yet you tried to use that stat to show that the 12th was no better (not even slightly) then the 13th. Thats pretty short sighted, especially when you compare the top teams from each region, as well as the success that the teams from both regions have had not just against each other, but across the state. I just find it funny how hard headed some ppl can be..... to the point to where they will not even acknowledge the obvious truth, or at least concede that they could possibly be wrong.

"In a situation like that...... you are right, I wouldnt have called him shooting that shot while being double teamed ill advised, but I would have also called it gutsy and clutch. Being clutch isnt about being smart or making the shot.... its about being willing to take it, and he passed on it. When I talk about his ill advised shots I am not talkin about last second game winners because in that type of a situation the rules change. Any person who has played sports and had the ball in their hands with the game on the line in the last seconds knows that."ukbellco14

 

You are wrong again. Gutsy would have been taking the shot. Clutch would have been making the shot. Very different. How many game winners has Proffitt made I wonder?? And if not, was it because his teammates scored so many points that he didn't have to or because he passed the ball to an open teammate for them to take the other shot. Quite frankly, I don't think Proffitt is guarded nearly as hard as Miller simply because he doesn't pose as much a scoring threat as his teammates.