Do you consider Self Defense immoral? In some cases, war is self defense on a national level, ie the United States declaring war on the Empire of Japan after Pear Harbor and then declaring war on Nazi Germany after Nazi Germany declared war on the US.

you forgot an L

Sorry, not familiar with that.

 

In the Catholic faith, Just War Theory is based in a few teachings and Bible passages. It IS true that peaceful life is what we should strive for...however, based on passages like Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 where we read "There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven... ...a time to kill and a time to heal; a time to tear down and a time to build up..." and Romans 13 where we read St. Paul's word that "...rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad...But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer." There are Bible passages that clearly acknowledge a necessity for fighting and war *at times*.

 

The Catholic Church has codified these teachings, saying that all four of the following must be true in order to justify war or violent fighting:

1) The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain

2) All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

3) There must be serious prospects of success;

4) The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

 

These things are along the lines of my beliefs on war's morality.

We declared war on Japan ,the Third Reich declared war on us we just reciprocated .

 

True.

Do you consider Self Defense immoral? In some cases, war is self defense on a national level, ie the United States declaring war on the Empire of Japan after Pear Harbor and then declaring war on Nazi Germany after Nazi Germany declared war on the US.

McClain took care of Hans Gruber . He was just a crook .

you forgot an L

 

Ah, but you are forgetting Pear Harbor, I much smaller and lesser known harbor than Pearl Harbor. Lol

Where is Colonel Jessup when we need him?

I'm 1000% for it. I'm speaking in terms of terrorists.

 

I'm interested in hearing what could possibly make anyone against the use of it?[/QUOTE]

 

 

My Christian Convictions keep me from being for the use of any kind of torture.

 

 

The Muslims extremists would eradicate all Jews and Christians. So I guess it would be ok then?

Water-boarding DOES give actionable intelligence.

 

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.

 

Panetta, who in a 2009 CIA confirmation hearing declared "waterboarding is torture and it's wrong," said Tuesday that debate about its use will continue.

 

"Whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always gonna be an open question," Panetta said.

 

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - TODAY News - TODAY.com

 

Waterboarding Success Stories: Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Library Tower

 

 

 

 

The waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is often cited as one of the major waterboarding "success stories". ABC News reporter Brian Ross credited waterboarding for the crucial information used to avert the destruction of Library Tower.

 

 

ROSS: That has happened in some cases where the material that's been given has not been accurate, has been essentially to stop the torture. In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Library Tower.

 

The US Bank Tower plot was revealed to the public by President Bush on February 9, 2006 in a speech to the National Guard Association:

 

 

In the weeks after September the 11th, while Americans were still recovering from an unprecedented strike on our homeland, al Qaeda was already busy planning its next attack. We now know that in October 2001, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad -- the mastermind of the September the 11th attacks -- had already set in motion a plan to have terrorist operatives hijack an airplane using shoe bombs to breach the cockpit door, and fly the plane into the tallest building on the West Coast. We believe the intended target was Liberty [sic] Tower in Los Angeles, California.

 

Rather than use Arab hijackers as he had on September the 11th, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad sought out young men from Southeast Asia -- whom he believed would not arouse as much suspicion. To help carry out this plan, he tapped a terrorist named Hambali [Riduan Isamuddin], one of the leaders of an al Qaeda affiliated group in Southeast Asia called "J-I" [Jemaah Islamiyah]. JI terrorists were responsible for a series of deadly attacks in Southeast Asia, and members of the group had trained with al Qaeda. Hambali recruited several key operatives who had been training in Afghanistan. Once the operatives were recruited, they met with Osama bin Laden, and then began preparations for the West Coast attack.

 

Their plot was derailed in early 2002 when a Southeast Asian nation arrested a key al Qaeda operative. Subsequent debriefings and other intelligence operations made clear the intended target, and how al Qaeda hoped to execute it. This critical intelligence helped other allies capture the ringleaders and other known operatives who had been recruited for this plot. The West Coast plot had been thwarted.

 

Which aspects of this plot could Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's waterboarding have revealed?

 

• We learned about Al Qaeda's interest in flying planes into buildings on September 11, 2001.

 

 

• We knew about Al Qaeda's use of shoe bombs from Richard Reid, captured in December 22, 2001.

 

 

• We knew about Jemaah Islamiyah at least since the Bali Bomb attack on October 12, 2002.

 

 

• The "key al Qaeda operative" and pilot for the plot, Zaini Zakari, was arrested by Malaysian authorities in December 2002.

 

 

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured in Rawalpindi, Pakistan on March 1, 2003 — after the plot was discovered, after the plot was "derailed", after the pilot of the plane was captured. Khaled Sheikh Mohammed could not have "provided valuable information and saved lives" when all aspects of the plot were well-known and the attack had been foiled prior to his capture.

 

Coercive interrogation is extremely effective at obtaining confessions. Evidence obtained from coercive interrogation is highly dubious and must be corroborated with reliable sources. The claims of interrogators who coerce their prisoners should be treated with as much skepticism as the claims of the prisoners themselves.

 

Found these after reading all of the "Expert" opinions that Water-boarding didn't lead to good intelligence

Here is a question, If you are a suspected terrorist would you rather...

a) Be waterboarded to determine if you are a terrorist and give up any info that you may have. Then be imprisoned at a nice tropical location.

b) Be blown into 1500 pieces by a Predator Drone strike, but keep your secrets away from the infidels.

 

If you are the US which of those would better serve the American people?

 

 

The Muslims extremists would eradicate all Jews and Christians. So I guess it would be ok then?

 

 

My Christian Convictions are not based upon how others view me or fellow Christians. Matthew 6:43-47

 

 

My Christian Convictions are not based upon how others view me or fellow Christians. Matthew 6:43-47

 

Sorry you missed my implication.....if all Jews and Christians were eradicated, there will only be one point of view. This is what they seek! There will be no more Christianity of Judaism.

 

Sorry you missed my implication.....if all Jews and Christians were eradicated, there will only be one point of view. This is what they seek! There will be no more Christianity of Judaism.

 

 

Again, you must miss my implication: My faith is not based on what "they" are trying to do. I also don't see torture as bringing an end to that desire.

 

I was asked my personal convictions on the matter. I shared them and I even shared why from a biblical/theological standpoint.

 

If you want it in plain terms, I don't see Islam eradicating Christianity in totality as you seem to believe they can.

Who cares if it's ineffective? These are terrorists we're talking about. There is no such thing as being "too harsh" when it comes to terrorists.

 

I'd take a broomstick to them if I thought they'd talk. Just like you said these aren't people, they have no rights IMO.