True or false SF is a top 5 D and gave up 32 points at home?

 

True or false if they didn't get a last minute TD drive from their offense they would have been watching next week?

 

I look forward to your spinning it as not an Offensive league. Can't win in the playoffs if you don't score points. That simple.

 

True or false: the San Francisco D forced 5 New Orleans' turnovers?

True or false: the San Francisco D forced 5 New Orleans' turnovers?

 

False. At least 2 were ST

Their top 5 defense set the offense up for other scores, the top 5 defense held them to 32 points. If they were not as good of a defense we would have seen th Saints do the samething they did to the Lions. The Lions definitely have the offense to score with the Saints, but didn't matter since their defense did nothing. The 49ers have an offense which ranked I believe 22nd but since their defense created turnovers early and made the Saints work and frustrated Brees, it allowed them to play their style of football, and not the up and down game the Saints like to play.

 

For some reason you act like that I have said you only need a top 10 defense to do great. I know if a team has a top 10 defense but one of the last offenses in the league that it won't matter. Just like with the Jags and Browns. However the top 10 defense does matter still with those teams in how opposing QB's would look. If your always playing top 10 defenses it does matter, especially with a rookie which got us into this big discussion. A lot of these top 10 defenses like the Ravens, Steelers, Texans, and 49ers have offenses that can make plays still to help win the games. We just seen the 2 of the 3 best offenses in the league lose to teams, because their defense sucked. Having a top defense and an average offense can do well against top offenses with bad defenses. They will slow down the top offenses some, but be able to score against the bad defenses.

 

I don't read your books. What I've said is Defensive statistics are totally overrated. It matters more who you play than anything else for that stat. SF has a good D that benefitted greatly from 5 TO's and still needed an Offensive TD drive under 2 minutes to get above the 32 that was hung on them. It's obviously nice to have a good D but you hav to score to win in the NFL because of he rules helping the O

Funnest game of the weekend to watch by far. Very happy for Alex Smith, Vernon Davis, and Justin Smith.

I don't read your books. What I've said is Defensive statistics are totally overrated. It matters more who you play than anything else for that stat. SF has a good D that benefitted greatly from 5 TO's and still needed an Offensive TD drive under 2 minutes to get above the 32 that was hung on them. It's obviously nice to have a good D but you hav to score to win in the NFL because of he rules helping the O

 

You also have to be able to stop teams, and slow teams down. The Lions can score plenty, but that sure didnt help them beat the Saints. San Fran scored 36 points because their defense created turnovers, and allowed them to play their type of football. No duh a team has to score points to win, however we see it over and over the team with a top defense and an average offense that can take advantage of mistakes, beats teams with top offenses and bad defenses. Thats the reason why Peyton only has won Super Bowl, it took his defense playing like a top 10 defense in the playoffs to get it done, same with Green Bay last year. Tom Brady won 3 Super Bowls, however he won them when they had a top defense, not a top offense. They relied on great defense, and Tom Brady being able to make a clutch play when needed. Since they have become a top offense, they haven't won a Super Bowl. They may this year, but still waiting on that.

 

Apparently you do read my books by the way....Also Remember what started this whole debate with us. Was you acting like it's no big deal to beat a top 10 defense, yet teams with top 10 defenses win more than not. Teams with top defenses makes the great QB's like Manning, Rodgers, Brees, etc look not as unstoppable as usual. You talked about how it didn't matter that the Bengals played 11 games against top defenses, yet as we are seeing it very well does matter. Even the best QB's struggle more often against those types. Top defenses with average offenses that can make plays when needed are very tough teams to beat. Which you act like me saying playing top 10 defenses are just as tough, means that I don't think playing top offenses are tough. I know it is very tough to beat the top offenses too, however you have continually failed to notice how playing teams who top defenses also are very tough to beat. We are seeing it in the playoffs too, and yet you still can't admit it. Yes you have to score, but its the teams who can stop and slow down the other teams who do the best.

I'm not saying having good defenses isn't nice. I'm saying grading them by yards allowed isn't a good gouge. For sure the teams with better D's won this week except Denver but they are fatally flawed on Offense. It all comes down to turnovers and QB passer rating differential not yards allowed.

I'm not saying having good defenses isn't nice. I'm saying grading them by yards allowed isn't a good gouge. For sure the teams with better D's won this week except Denver but they are fatally flawed on Offense. It all comes down to turnovers and QB passer rating differential not yards allowed.

 

Depends IMO. Rushing YPC and yards allowed per game are an effective way to look at rush defense. Its a stat college and NFL coaches use to evaluate how effective their rush defense is. Passing stats can be flawed because if you win alot, the passing stats against your defense will be higher because teams will be passing more on you. So I sort of agree.

They played great and had 32 hung on them. You still have to score to win. The key was getting two huge offensive drives to come from behind in the last 4 minutes of the game IMO.

 

Now the NYG's D was the key to their win.

 

They had 32 hung on them sure, but they were going against teh best offense in the league IMO. Add in the fact that the Sproles TD and the Graham TD at the end were kind of fluky in an NFL sense and their defense wasn't that bad. If their offense was really good they would have won by 30.

They had 32 hung on them sure, but they were going against teh best offense in the league IMO. Add in the fact that the Sproles TD and the Graham TD at the end were kind of fluky in an NFL sense and their defense wasn't that bad. If their offense was really good they would have won by 30.

 

Not disagreeing. This whole thing started because I said I wasn't sure Dalton could win a shootout against a good QB. I would say Smith won a shootout. Is that a fair statement?

Depends IMO. Rushing YPC and yards allowed per game are an effective way to look at rush defense. Its a stat college and NFL coaches use to evaluate how effective their rush defense is. Passing stats can be flawed because if you win alot, the passing stats against your defense will be higher because teams will be passing more on you. So I sort of agree.

 

For sure something to look at. My point is and has been top 10 defense stats in the NFL are strictly based on yards allowed. That's flawed for many reasons. One you mentioned. Another is and I think it's the biggest, yards allowed depends more on schedule than even how good your D is. Houston was very good on yards allowed. I'd say playing Jacksonville and Indy 4 times helped more than just how good they played.

Not disagreeing. This whole thing started because I said I wasn't sure Dalton could win a shootout against a good QB. I would say Smith won a shootout. Is that a fair statement?

 

True.

 

For sure something to look at. My point is and has been top 10 defense stats in the NFL are strictly based on yards allowed. That's flawed for many reasons. One you mentioned. Another is and I think it's the biggest, yards allowed depends more on schedule than even how good your D is. Houston was very good on yards allowed. I'd say playing Jacksonville and Indy 4 times helped more than just how good they played.

All stats need to be looked at in a vacuum. Advanced analytical stats would tell more of the whole story, which is why the NBA is probably better at showing which players are most valuable in certain situations. The NBA PER, gamescore, tightly contested percentage, etc. all tell more of a true story than NFL stats can.

 

GMs and front office execs in the NBA focused on this in the last decade. Until alot more research is done in football, stats will never tell the whole story. For my money, San Francisco has one of the five best defenses in the league.

True.

 

All stats need to be looked at in a vacuum. Advanced analytical stats would tell more of the whole story, which is why the NBA is probably better at showing which players are most valuable in certain situations. The NBA PER, gamescore, tightly contested percentage, etc. all tell more of a true story than NFL stats can.

 

GMs and front office execs in the NBA focused on this in the last decade. Until alot more research is done in football, stats will never tell the whole story. For my money, San Francisco has one of the five best defenses in the league.

 

Totally and completely agree. And my point was a top 5 D that between them and their ST caused 5 TO's, scored a lot off of those still had 32 hung on them on their home field and had to have a 2 minute scoring drive from their Offense to survive and advance. Stout D's are great to have, but you still have to score and I would put yards allowed at least 4th or 5th most important thing to look at when judging a D if not farther down. Yards allowed and yards allowed per play against teams above .500 would tell me much more than simply yards allowed all season.

I'm not saying having good defenses isn't nice. I'm saying grading them by yards allowed isn't a good gouge. For sure the teams with better D's won this week except Denver but they are fatally flawed on Offense. It all comes down to turnovers and QB passer rating differential not yards allowed.

 

Which I already showed you that a lot of the same teams in the top 10 in defense, is also in the top 10 in QB passer rating. Also yards does matter too, when your not allowing the big plays, and making teams work for yards. I am not arguing that this is becoming and has become a passing league, there is no denying that. However playing top 10 defenses, teams also with top passing defenses is harder for QB's to do well. A guy you were very hard on played a lot of those teams this year, and did it as a rookie. Playing those types of teams does matter, especially when 4 games comes against teams in their own division. You were so hung up on what QB's they played, which is true. However they also played a lot of top defenses, with offenses who were very capable of still scoring and making plays when needed.

Totally and completely agree. And my point was a top 5 D that between them and their ST caused 5 TO's, scored a lot off of those still had 32 hung on them on their home field and had to have a 2 minute scoring drive from their Offense to survive and advance. Stout D's are great to have, but you still have to score and I would put yards allowed at least 4th or 5th most important thing to look at when judging a D if not farther down. Yards allowed and yards allowed per play against teams above .500 would tell me much more than simply yards allowed all season.

 

Which as I already pointed out in another thread on this subject, that a lot of the same teams in the top 10 on defense are in the top 10 in those categories too. So I didn't figure I would needed to say in the post that they played top 10 defensive in passer ratings, rushing yards per carry, etc. I figured since I already showed you that it was the same teams, that I could just say top 10 defenses. But if you want my post to be even longer I can do that.

Not disagreeing. This whole thing started because I said I wasn't sure Dalton could win a shootout against a good QB. I would say Smith won a shootout. Is that a fair statement?

 

Are argumetn started because you said it doesn't matter that Dalton played those types of defenses this year. Even though as we see those types of defesnses give even the best QB's trouble in this league. Those types of defenses even rattle guys like Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, etc. Yet you wanted to not acknowledge that at all while talking about Dalton. As I said before if he played the defenses like the Saints, Pats, Packers, etc. Yeah those teams would put up points, however Dalton probably also do a lot better and put up more points. Then as he gets more experience in the league, he would have a chance to win those types of shootouts when playing a bad defense like Smith did yesterday. The one thing in Smith is Smith never showed as much as Dalton had in this year, until this season. So if Smith can do it, it's not that hard to see that Dalton can do it too, once he has more experience and an off season.