I voted for Jeter, but agree with the rest that in reality, both are getting in the HOF.

 

Take both of them off the Yankee's team and question whether they would have had as successful careers as they had with the Yanks. I think Jeter is still Mr. Consistencey and puts up similar numbers. I have a hard time getting on board with Mariano being able to come close to his numbers on a different team.

Mariano and it's not even close. You can get another Jeter. Especially the Yankees. You can't get another Mariano. You must have great pitching to win a World Series. You must especially have a great closer. I have never heard a team say we must have a great shortstop to win the World Series. Point being.....I believe the Yanks still win all of their 'Jeter-led' rings without Jeter but not without Mariano.

I'm not trying to diminish Mo's value as I believe he is a sure-fire first ballot HOFer. But elite closers are pretty easy to find for a season or two---a team with the Yankee's payroll could have easily went out and got one every year. Check out this list of names: Eric Gagne, JJ Putz, Rafael Soriano, Francisco Rodriguez, Keith Foulke, Brad Lidge, Jose Valverde, and Chad Cordero,. All of those guys have had "vitrually unhittable" seasons since 2000 and all pretty much flamed out after a year or two. Closers are just simply not a hard position to replace.

 

Here are some great closers of WS Champions between '01-'10:

'06 Cardinals - Jason Isringhausen

'05 White Sox - Bobby Jenks

'03 Marlins - Ugueth Urbina

'01 Diamondbacks - Byung-Hyun Kim

Hey Joe, your BoSox have handled Mo as well if not better than anyone.

 

That's probably because (a) they faced him more than anyone else did and (b) they had the best teams he would face during the season.

I'm not trying to diminish Mo's value as I believe he is a sure-fire first ballot HOFer. But elite closers are pretty easy to find for a season or two---a team with the Yankee's payroll could have easily went out and got one every year. Check out this list of names: Eric Gagne, JJ Putz, Rafael Soriano, Francisco Rodriguez, Keith Foulke, Brad Lidge, Jose Valverde, and Chad Cordero,. All of those guys have had "vitrually unhittable" seasons since 2000 and all pretty much flamed out after a year or two. Closers are just simply not a hard position to replace.

 

Here are some great closers of WS Champions between '01-'10:

'06 Cardinals - Jason Isringhausen

'05 White Sox - Bobby Jenks

'03 Marlins - Ugueth Urbina

'01 Diamondbacks - Byung-Hyun Kim

 

Doesn't that make it significantly more impressive then that Rivera has been doing it since 1997 when everyone else is burning out after a couple of years? Elite closers are easy to find for a season or two... But it's been a position the Yankees haven't had to stress over for 14 years now.

Doesn't that make it significantly more impressive then that Rivera has been doing it since 1997 when everyone else is burning out after a couple of years? Elite closers are easy to find for a season or two... But it's been a position the Yankees haven't had to stress over for 14 years now.

 

Exactly. Excellent point.

Doesn't that make it significantly more impressive then that Rivera has been doing it since 1997 when everyone else is burning out after a couple of years? Elite closers are easy to find for a season or two... But it's been a position the Yankees haven't had to stress over for 14 years now.

They haven't had to stress, but they probably could have found servicable closing for a much cheaper price and spent that money else where. My point is that unlike what PP92 says, teams win the world series all the time without elite closers. Look at all the names of closers the Yankees could have used in place of Mo and gotten similar, if not better stats.

Mariano and it's not even close. You can get another Jeter. Especially the Yankees. You can't get another Mariano. You must have great pitching to win a World Series. You must especially have a great closer. I have never heard a team say we must have a great shortstop to win the World Series. Point being.....I believe the Yanks still win all of their 'Jeter-led' rings without Jeter but not without Mariano.

 

That's just it and you're failing to realize it, they haven't. Sure he's a dime a dozen, or is he??????

Rivera for me. I've heard it said multiple times from different analysts that Rivera was the most valuable player for the Yanks during their great run. The regular season numbers are essential to get him in discussions like this, but it is what he did, and what he meant in the post-season that puts him at the top, IMO.

 

As a guy who got tired of seeing the Yankees win, I would turn the game off if they went into the 8th with a lead. You knew it was over at that point. I could probably count the times on my hands that he actually failed in those big moments. Heck, even if it was tied late in the game there was a really good chance the Yankees would win because Rivera could and would come in and shut a team down for 2-3 innings. Typically, that would be enough for their lineup to score a run and get a win.

 

That, to me, is what makes him unique. He was the most dominant closer ever without a doubt. However, unlike almost every other closer in the game, Rivera could go multiple innings if necessary, and he would come in in a tie game to give the Yankees those two or three shots to get a run and win it. Nearly every other closer in baseball will only pitch one inning, and rarely come into the game unless they are protecting a lead.

That's just it and you're failing to realize it, they haven't. Sure he's a dime a dozen, or is he??????

 

No. I get it. Jeter is arguably one of the best Yankees ever. Top 5-10 shortstop in all of baseball ever. There has never been a need to replace either player while both have been Yankees. My point is that when Jeter is done he'll be easier to replace than Mariano. Ten years after both are gone I bet the Yanks have less shortstops than closers in that time frame. They will never replace Mariano Rivera. Never. Greatest closer ever. Period. And may close out yet another World Series this year at 55 years of age.

I'm a numbers guy and Jeter has hit one of the big ones: 3,000. A player does that and it automatically suggests a sustained excellence worthy of the Hall.

 

Using one of my favorite stats, Wins Above Replacement, 63 is a big mark as 84 percent of the players with a career WAR at or above that level are in the Hall of Fame. Jeter is over 70. He is also a Yankee Captain and, despite my love of the numbers, that's the sort of intangible that has to count for something right?

 

On the other hand, Rivera has a WAR of about 55 while only pitching about 1200 innings in his career. The last reliever to enter the HOF, Goose Gossage in 2009, had a career WAR of about 40 while pitching 1800 innings. Rivera also has the 13th-best career ERA in the history of Major League Baseball and all 12 players ahead of him pitched in the dead ball era. That has to count for something as well, despite not being a starter and so never pitching deep enough into games to get tired, when most of the excellent starters slip up.

 

Given the excellence of both these players -- and despite what I've always perceived as Jeter's defensive deficiencies -- I'm giving the nod to Jeter as I agree with the premise that if I absolutely have to choose one for the Hall, I'm choosing an everyday player with 3,000 hits over a relief pitcher.

600 saves. How about that stat? Only one other person has hit that number. Rivera will be the all time saves leader in a few games. Jeter will never be the all time hits leader.

 

How many batters does Rivera face yearly?

I'm a numbers guy and Jeter has hit one of the big ones: 3,000. A player does that and it automatically suggests a sustained excellence worthy of the Hall.

 

Using one of my favorite stats, Wins Above Replacement, 63 is a big mark as 84 percent of the players with a career WAR at or above that level are in the Hall of Fame. Jeter is over 70. He is also a Yankee Captain and, despite my love of the numbers, that's the sort of intangible that has to count for something right?

 

On the other hand, Rivera has a WAR of about 55 while only pitching about 1200 innings in his career. The last reliever to enter the HOF, Goose Gossage in 2009, had a career WAR of about 40 while pitching 1800 innings. Rivera also has the 13th-best career ERA in the history of Major League Baseball and all 12 players ahead of him pitched in the dead ball era. That has to count for something as well, despite not being a starter and so never pitching deep enough into games to get tired, when most of the excellent starters slip up.

 

Given the excellence of both these players -- and despite what I've always perceived as Jeter's defensive deficiencies -- I'm giving the nod to Jeter as I agree with the premise that if I absolutely have to choose one for the Hall, I'm choosing an everyday player with 3,000 hits over a relief pitcher.

Great post and it states my opinion much more eloquently than I ever could!

No. I get it. Jeter is arguably one of the best Yankees ever. Top 5-10 shortstop in all of baseball ever. There has never been a need to replace either player while both have been Yankees. My point is that when Jeter is done he'll be easier to replace than Mariano. Ten years after both are gone I bet the Yanks have less shortstops than closers in that time frame. They will never replace Mariano Rivera. Never. Greatest closer ever. Period. And may close out yet another World Series this year at 55 years of age.

:lol: :lol:

600 saves. How about that stat? Only one other person has hit that number. Rivera will be the all time saves leader in a few games. Jeter will never be the all time hits leader.

 

How many batters does Rivera face yearly?

1995 - 301

1996 - 425

1997 - 301 (Closer for the first time)

1998 - 246

1999 - 268

2000 - 311

2001 - 310

2002 - 187

2003 - 277

2004 - 316

2005 - 306

2006 - 293

2007 - 295

2008 - 259

2009 - 257

2010 - 230

 

Average as a closer: 275

Career Average: 286

 

 

For comparisons sake, Jeter averages 745 PA's in a 162 game season. Pretty big difference there.

Mariano Rivera only has 600 saves because he has played for the Yankees. If he is on any other team except maybe the Braves. He has half that total. This is not to diminish what he has done. Derek Jeter has been the leader of the Yankees for quite some time now. He gets my vote.