By the same token, you could argue that the right's efforts to paint the US as a Christian theocracy is just as disingenuous. If the Founders intended this to be a Christian nation, why didn't they outlaw other religions in the constitution?

 

This country was largely void of non christian religions when this country was founded. Most of the first amendment was based to stop a protestant/catholic fight like they left Europe for.

This country was largely void of non christian religions when this country was founded. Most of the first amendment was based to stop a protestant/catholic fight like they left Europe for.

 

I think you are making a simplistic statement to a complicated process.

 

It was not about protestant/catholic as much as it was about establishment. And Baptists were leaders in influencing James Madison and in getting him elected for the very purpose of providing the same Religious Liberty nationally that they had together fought for to create in Virginia.

 

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/read_johnleland.html

 

One of the great things that the founding fathers hated was the way in which the church had married itself to the state in Europe. This was exactly what they wanted to prevent from happening because of the history of corruption they had seen from that union.

 

Is it the duty of a deist to support that which he believes to be a cheat and imposition? Is it the duty of the Jew to support the religion of Jesus Christ, when he really believes that he was an imposter? Must the papist be forced to pay men for preaching down the supremacy of the pope, whom they are sure is the head of the church? Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of mathematics (from The Yankee Spy, John Leland writing under the pen name of Jack Nipps, Boston, 1794).

 

To say that religion cannot stand without a state establishment is not only contrary to fact (as has been proved already) but is a contradiction in phrase. Religion must have stood a time before any law could have been made about it; and if it did stand almost three hundred years without law it can still stand without it (from The Connecticut Dissenters Strong Box, Number One, New London 1802).

 

 

 

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qleland.htm

While the discussion of the founding is always interesting (maybe a new thread?), the original question still remains. If you were creating a government, as the Founders did, and you wanted it to be a Christian government, then what would you create and why? Conversely, should Christians be concerned with the matters of government?

 

I admit I'm not familiar with the many forms of government that exist, but I'm inclined to think that the vast majority of government structures are not inherently good or bad--amoral, I guess you could say. What matters most are those who are in positions of authority and influence. A dictatorship, even, could be a good thing if you had a moral, selfless, pure man or woman running the show. A majority rules type of government would be awful if the majority are corrupt.

 

I know this quote exists, but I'm not sure from whom it originates (I'm thinking John Adams). But one of the founders stated that America's Constitutional Republic will only thrive if the nation is a Christian nation.

 

My personal belief is that America's founders were guided by God Himself. Though flawed and imperfect, I believe those men helped to establish a grand form of government that has thrived for over two hundred years; but it had more to do with the people running government than the structure itself.

 

And as a Christian, I 100% believe there should be concern with matters of government. As a Christian, Christ is to direct each and every aspect of my life--including politics. But Christians make mistakes when they think power is the way to change the perceived immorality in the country. So, should Christians be concerned? Absolutely. Should we make government/politics the be-all-end-all? Absolutely not.

That's a good one. Politians and morals in the same sentence.

 

You can make sarcasm out of it all you want, but when it comes down to it....those politicans that we voted in with their morals are the ones that make the decisions. So the two go in hand.

I admit I'm not familiar with the many forms of government that exist, but I'm inclined to think that the vast majority of government structures are not inherently good or bad--amoral, I guess you could say. What matters most are those who are in positions of authority and influence. A dictatorship, even, could be a good thing if you had a moral, selfless, pure man or woman running the show. A majority rules type of government would be awful if the majority are corrupt.

 

I know this quote exists, but I'm not sure from whom it originates (I'm thinking John Adams). But one of the founders stated that America's Constitutional Republic will only thrive if the nation is a Christian nation.

 

My personal belief is that America's founders were guided by God Himself. Though flawed and imperfect, I believe those men helped to establish a grand form of government that has thrived for over two hundred years; but it had more to do with the people running government than the structure itself.

 

And as a Christian, I 100% believe there should be concern with matters of government. As a Christian, Christ is to direct each and every aspect of my life--including politics. But Christians make mistakes when they think power is the way to change the perceived immorality in the country. So, should Christians be concerned? Absolutely. Should we make government/politics the be-all-end-all? Absolutely not.

 

A reasonable answer as usual, Randy Parker. I'm inclined to agree with you, but this is my follow-up question to your post: as a Christian, what do you think is the goal of government?

Habib, you may find this link interesting as it does a pretty good job of addressing your question of what is the purpose of government for Christians.

You can make sarcasm out of it all you want, but when it comes down to it....those politicans that we voted in with their morals are the ones that make the decisions. So the two go in hand.

 

It was a joke. Climb down off your high horse.

It was a joke. Climb down off your high horse.

 

My bad. It is difficult to listen to the tone of the comment when you just have to rely on reading it. My apologies.

as a Christian, what do you think is the goal of government?

 

From my perspective, the primary goal of government is to protect what I believe are inherent human rights (life, liberty, freedom). That's probably akin to, or even the same thing as what the founders intended when they spoke and wrote of "inalienable rights."

 

And then I guess on another level, government exists for representative leadership & organization for a country.

I disagree. I believe our Founding Fathers believed that religious (most were Christians) values would guide decisions, but not allow them to dominate others, as they clearly intended religious freedom.

The 1st amendment says that all were free to worship as they please and that there would not be a state backed religion. It did not say everyone had to leave their beliefs at the door when they walked intothe halls of government.

 

So many people take separation of church and state to mean that you cannot have any religious convictions as a public servant. This WAS NOT the intent of the founding fathers. They simply did not want to force people to worship in a government backed church. It is impossible to separate our world view from decision making. Our morals, values, and yes, even our religious belief system will affect the way a person guides government. That is why it is so important to elect those who will guide the country as a constructionist ---- taking the constitution for its original intent as set forth by our founding fathers. A dynamic constitution will not work. IMHO

So many people take separation of church and state to mean that you cannot have any religious convictions as a public servant. This WAS NOT the intent of the founding fathers. They simply did not want to force people to worship in a government backed church. It is impossible to separate our world view from decision making. Our morals, values, and yes, even our religious belief system will affect the way a person guides government. That is why it is so important to elect those who will guide the country as a constructionist ---- taking the constitution for its original intent as set forth by our founding fathers. A dynamic constitution will not work. IMHO

 

Please don't think that is what I meant. I actually don't believe that the first amendment meant the separation like some believe. I don't think individuals can or should leave their beliefs on the steps of the capital. However Congress as a whole should. Like it or not this country does not and should not have a national religion. We are NOT a christian nation, we are a nation of christians, jews, muslims, athelists, ect... Government should be there for all of us, not just christians.

Please don't think that is what I meant. I actually don't believe that the first amendment meant the separation like some believe. I don't think individuals can or should leave their beliefs on the steps of the capital. However Congress as a whole should. Like it or not this country does not and should not have a national religion. We are NOT a christian nation, we are a nation of christians, jews, muslims, athelists, ect... Government should be there for all of us, not just christians.

 

While I understand what you are saying I think it is highly improbable if not surely impossible that anyone can leave their moral belief and world view out of the picture when making decisions.

We are a nation that was founded on Christian principles that was willing to allow religious freedom and expression for all. The symbols that are found throughout our nations capital are of the Christian Bible. In many of our documents and laws that guide us speak of God and those people were of the Christian Faith and denying it, is just denial of history.

We are a nation that was founded on Christian principles that was willing to allow religious freedom and expression for all. The symbols that are found throughout our nations capital are of the Christian Bible. In many of our documents and laws that guide us speak of God and those people were of the Christian Faith and denying it, is just denial of history.

 

Does that explain the presence of Confuscious, Hammurabi, Solon, and others in some of the various artworks? what religious and Biblical image does the "Statue of Freedom" on the Capitol represent?

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

 

I would also add that just because someone evokes the name of God, does not make them Christians or declare their intent to be establishment of a theocracy.

Does that explain the presence of Confuscious, Hammurabi, Solon, and others in some of the various artworks? what religious and Biblical image does the "Statue of Freedom" on the Capitol represent?

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

 

I would also add that just because someone evokes the name of God, does not make them Christians or declare their intent to be establishment of a theocracy.

 

Duplicate. See next post.