I have been accurate. You just aren't following me and that's fine. It's just as hard for me at work to explain why I feel the way I do about the racial inequalities that plagued men's college basketball. I guess I danced around what I should have been trying to say too much so I'll try to be more blunt now....... Until 1966, there was never 5 black men on the court at the same time. In my opinion, black men make up a large majority of the great and more talented basketball players. Again, that is my opinion. Doesn't make it right, but it is my opinion. When Rupp was coaching he was not coaching against predominately black teams, he was coaching against predominately white teams that may have had 3 black men on the whole team. If I am not mistaken, the Elgin Baylor Seattle team had Elgin and Charley Brown on it and I believe that was it. Opportunities for young black men to play college basketball were nowhere near as prevalent and available as they have been since the late 1960's and early 70's when Texas El Paso proved that it is actually okay to put 5 black guys out on the court at the same time. So when I say 'completely integrated' I am meaning that more than 5 black guys were allowed on the court at the same time. Until 1966, no team had put 5 black guys on the court at the same time. 4 was the most until that point and things were still bad for black men at the time. Rupp was winning games when the quality of basketball was nowhere near where the quality of basketball is now. The quality of the game is not even close. Wasn't the dunk outlawed at some point during his time period? So forgive me when I interject race because I think the racial inequalities affected the quality of the game and that because Rupp adapted to the game is still one of the greatest coaches ever, I just don't think he is better than Coach K. That will never be swayed. Period.

 

 

Also, please, go back to my first post when I admitted I was bias.:isurrender:

 

 

Have a good one.:thumb: I am sure our paths will cross again.

 

This is what you should have said from the start. What you said was inaccurate therefore it made your argument bad. Coach K has a good enough argument without having innacurate information thrown out there to help his case.

 

As far as race is concerned, it makes the argument even tougher to decide with Coach Rupp not coaching many African Americans. Both are excellent coaches and I am so happy with the way Adolph Rupp has made Kentucky such a great basketball state.

Frankly, I'm surprised the poll is as close as it is.

 

I'm sure that's because there are actually some that will allow for logic to actually come out, rather than homerism.

I'm sure that's because there are actually some that will allow for logic to actually come out, rather than homerism.

 

You not being one, of course.

Jim still hasn't voted. :popcorn:

You not being one, of course.

 

I'm not surprised it's close. I'll tell you this, IMO, if you took a national poll on this exact topic, I feel Coach Krzyzewski would win handily. That said, I can see the argument for both, but if Coach K hits 1,000 wins, and maybe another Final Four or two, or hopefully another title, I feel the argument is certainly over.

Jim still hasn't voted. :popcorn:

 

To be honest, I can't make up my mind.

I'm not surprised it's close. I'll tell you this, IMO, if you took a national poll on this exact topic, I feel Coach Krzyzewski would win handily. That said, I can see the argument for both, but if Coach K hits 1,000 wins, and maybe another Final Four or two, or hopefully another title, I feel the argument is certainly over.

 

I agree with all points made here. The thing is most people will pick the most recent person so Coach K would have a big advantage in a national poll, especially having just won another title. I also bet a poll would rank Kobe ahead of Oscar, Duncan ahead of Russell, Phil Jackson over Auerbach, etc.

I actually can't decide about Kobe -vs- Oscar.....I bet most wouldn't pick him over MJ....Duncan over Russell I highly doubt. IMO, Jackson over Auerbach is justified.

The thing is most people will pick the most recent person so Coach K would have a big advantage in a national poll, especially having just won another title. I also bet a poll would rank Kobe ahead of Oscar, Duncan ahead of Russell, Phil Jackson over Auerbach, etc.

 

:thumb:

I have been accurate. You just aren't following me and that's fine. It's just as hard for me at work to explain why I feel the way I do about the racial inequalities that plagued men's college basketball. I guess I danced around what I should have been trying to say too much so I'll try to be more blunt now....... Until 1966, there was never 5 black men on the court at the same time. In my opinion, black men make up a large majority of the great and more talented basketball players. Again, that is my opinion. Doesn't make it right, but it is my opinion. When Rupp was coaching he was not coaching against predominately black teams, he was coaching against predominately white teams that may have had 3 black men on the whole team. If I am not mistaken, the Elgin Baylor Seattle team had Elgin and Charley Brown on it and I believe that was it. Opportunities for young black men to play college basketball were nowhere near as prevalent and available as they have been since the late 1960's and early 70's when Texas El Paso proved that it is actually okay to put 5 black guys out on the court at the same time. So when I say 'completely integrated' I am meaning that more than 5 black guys were allowed on the court at the same time. Until 1966, no team had put 5 black guys on the court at the same time. 4 was the most until that point and things were still bad for black men at the time. Rupp was winning games when the quality of basketball was nowhere near where the quality of basketball is now. The quality of the game is not even close. Wasn't the dunk outlawed at some point during his time period? So forgive me when I interject race because I think the racial inequalities affected the quality of the game and that because Rupp adapted to the game is still one of the greatest coaches ever, I just don't think he is better than Coach K. That will never be swayed. Period.

 

 

Also, please, go back to my first post when I admitted I was biased.:isurrender:

 

 

Have a good one.:thumb: I am sure our paths will cross again.

 

For what it's worth Purple I would probably give the edge to K but not by the margin some have depicted on here.

 

Concerning the points you've raised let's remember that being African-American then or now is not an automatic qualifier of being "the best player out there."

 

That said, Seattle had two minorities on their team as you mentioned. One of which is an all time NBA great. Temple (whom UK beat TWICE that season, once in the Final Four) had Guy Rodgers. Check out his career in the NBA and see how great he was.

 

As to NCAA basketball, much is made of the '66 title game. It was viewed in retrospect as more ground breaking than at that moment (see Cawood's autobiography). But that same UK team beat Michigan in the Regional Final that year. Michigan who had Cazzie Russell among other African-Americans. Check out Cazzie's career as to whether he was a significant player of his day and in the NBA.

 

UCLA won 2 NCAA titles prior to 1966, do we discount them? Cincy won 2 AFTER Oscar Robertson left. Are they discounted? San Francisco had K.C. Jones and Bill Russell. To discount any accomplishments prior to '66 is a slap to those teams. I don't think you mean it that way, but it is the idea that talent somehow changed then. That Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlin, Bob Pettit, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Jerry Lucas, Gail Goodrich, John Havlichek, among others were all some how "less" of the stars they were because they did not play prior to '66.

 

If Rupp had convinced Wes Unseld to desegregate the UK program, he would have been the starting Center on that '66 team with Dampier and Riley. Would we be having this conversation?

 

I think What K has done in this era is short probably only of Wooden (but his era wasn't exactly parity by your standards either I would say).

 

Rupp, if he is indeed #2 in these sort of discussions, isn't very far above or below K. :thumb:

In answer to Purple Pride's question: "Wasn't the dunk outlawed at some point."

 

It was outlawed in '68 because of Lew Alcindor (Kareem). It was outlawed more out of height than race. It was reinstated in the '77 season. Think of what the '75 Cardinals would have done with the athletes they had who were dropping it in above the rim. Or NC State with David Thompson who just "alley-ooped" the shot in rather than stuff it. :thumb:

This is a tough debate and one where I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer. My heart wants to say Rupp and frankly there are enough supporting facts that my head could easily say Rupp as well. Regardless of what race issues other posters want to bring up, Rupp revolutionized the game of basketball in many different ways. The fact of the matter is that recruiting in Rupp's era was nothing like it is today both on the plus and negative sides. For one there was rarely much in the way of media outlets like ESPN, Rivals, Yahoo, Foxsports, etc. to get your name out to recruits outside your state. Furthermore, Rupp was tied to Lexington, KY which has some decent big cities in proximity, but nothing like some of the other nationally known programs of the time. Rupp didn't necessarily invent uptempo style of play or some of the games concepts of pressing or fast breaks, but he sure implemented them in ways that helped advance and perfect the way they were practiced. This was a man who made a program that had no business ever being a Basketball powerhouse into a household name on every college fan's lips when discussing basketball even today. His win totals and accolades are numerous and speak for themselves. Furthermore, Rupp also dealt with one thing Coach K didn't have, the no freshmen in Varsity rule. I find Rupp's recruiting feats to be among the most amazing, how a man could get kids from across certain regions of the country to come to Lexington, KY during his era when travel of that kind wasn't common and rarely did a person leave home for college for non-academic reasons. Bill Spivey out of Lakeland, Fla?

 

However, Coach K is just as amazing, and frankly the man continues to do it day in and out with teams that sometimes seem to boggle my mind. He is held to a pretty high standard with Duke's own academic requirements, yet he is an amazing coach, recruiter, and motivator. He himself seems to be gifted at finding amazingly talented young athletes who aren't just great for their athletic ability but also for fitting into his style of play, type of teams, and who simply win. He operates in a very hostile and ever changing prep basketball climate where frankly one would think his dislike of the one and done/even two and done guys that overpopulate our colleges now days would hinder him. Yet constantly Coach K thrives. A lot has to do with his great coaching mind. Like Rupp, he is a student of the X's and O's. He, like a chameleon, seems to adjust to the players surrounding him so that he can best exploit their talents. Even more impressive is how respected and trusted he is even by the USA Basketball powers that he is believed to be the one guy who can actually handle all the NBA talent these days and make them into a winning combination as a team during International Competition.

 

Still, in this argument, the fact remains between Rupp and Coach K. They are operating in entirely different eras. It is very easy for people of my generation to simply claim that today's era is much harder because the brand of ball is better, the athletes are better, the teams are more competitive overall, etc. etc. Yet, Rupp operated under his own set of complications. At least two or three times Rupp saw chances for an NCAA tournament title slip away due to different NCAA regulations, or procedures of how the tournament was set-up with bids and things. His recruiting was furthermore, probably much more difficult then today's because of travel restrictions simply because of cost, publicity limitations, desire of kids and their families to move far away from home to play sports, etc. Frankly, I don't think I could decide. I think both are amazing coaches who frankly have left their fingerprints all over the landscape of college basketball and changed so much of how the sport is played.

Your post can't be credible simply because of the first word of your post.

 

Taqke off ur Puke tented glasses. You are kidding if you think K could have survived back when Rupp coached. Is K better in today's world, maybe. I give overall to Rupp who created and maintained UK and I dont think its close when looking at the big picture.

Taqke off ur Puke tented glasses. You are kidding if you think K could have survived back when Rupp coached. Is K better in today's world, maybe. I give overall to Rupp who created and maintained UK and I dont think its close when looking at the big picture.

 

How do you know for fact?

How do you know for fact?

 

I know everything :jum