I liken this to comparing Babe Ruth to Hank Aaron or Barry Bonds. Rupp dominated basketball like Ruth dominated baseball. When Rupp retired, there were only 5 other coaches with 600 wins. And Rupp was over 100 wins ahead of the second place coach when he was forced to retire. Today there are 55 coaches with 600 wins. Think about that. That is a massive difference and indicates how dominating Rupp was. Also, UK was named National Champion two other times under Rupp by the Helms Foundation which named D1 champions until the early 80's. Rupp's 1954 team was undefeated but did not play in the NCAA tournament. So technically Rupp had 6 D1 titles. And one more point, Rupp's winning percentage is still number one among all the top coaches. He had nearly 100 fewer losses than Coach K. So I will go with Rupp.

 

However, I am glad to see Coach K taking over these records. I much prefer seeing him hold these records over Bob Knight or Dean Smith. I believe he is a better coach than either of those coaches and is the best coach since John Wooden.

We all have our favorites, but I will contend that to do it in the modern era is much harder than what it was in the past. Both with regards to coaches and players. Coach K-easy, and I am not a Duke fan.

As far as numbers go: (not that it matters, IMO)

 

Coach Rupp:

Overall Record: 876-190 (.822 win percentage in 42 years)

National Championships: 4 (48, 49, 51, 58)

National Championship Appearances: 5

Final Four Appearances: 6

Elita 8 Appearances: 9

Sweet 16 Appearances: 5

 

Coach Krzyzewski

Overall Record: 868-279 (.757 win percentage in 35 years)

National Championships: 4 (91, 92, 01, 10)

National Championship Appearances: 8

Final Four Appearances: 11

Elite 8 Appearances: 12

Sweet 16 Appearances: 19

 

If you're going by the numbers, it's not even close.

 

How is it not even close? :idunno:

 

Check out the winning percentages for starters.

 

Rupp coached for 12 years before accepting his first NCAA tourney bid. So stacking Sweet 16 and Elite 8's isn't exactly apples to apples.

 

Rupp also won the NIT in '46 and was the NIT runner-up in '47. There has to be a place to list those somewhere in the discussion.

 

Where do you place the '54 team that was 25-0? This team was ranked about 15 years ago as one of the top 10 all time teams by Sporting News. They defeated the NCAA champ easily that season (LaSalle) as well as Bob Pettit's LSU squad. They were clearly the best team in the land (record 27 pt per game victory margin bested only by UCLA in '72).

 

Speaking of differences in rules (as another post mentioned), the '54 team had to decline the bid because their top three players were ruled ineligible for the tourney. Why? Because they had finished their degrees in 4 years and the arcaic rule would not allow post-graduate students to play even if they had not used all their playing eligibility.

 

Rupp was also an innovator of the fast break and high offense scoring. His teams were averaging in the 70's during the 1940's when most teams were averaging in the low 60's or below.

 

I don't think it's as one sided as you believe. I can easily be persuaded that Coack K would have the lead in this discussion but the comparison is more balanced than just the raw numbers you presented. :thumb:

How does a coach have 6 Final 4 appearances, 9 Elite 8 appearances and 5 Sweet 16 appearances?

I am going with the guy who won his championships after the longstanding 'gentleman's agreement' was rendered obsolete...... Coach K.

 

Basketball is at a much different level these days. I don't think it's even close.

 

I'm not going to say it was "a genteman's agreement." There was nothing gentelmanly about the way the southern schools acted. (see Miss State and Alabama in the 50's and 60's banning their teams from NCAA play or the state of Louisiana ending the Sugar Bowl Tourney because of the same rationale)

 

However, UK did play teams that were integrated in the 50's and beyond. St. Johns, Michigan State, Iowa, Temple, Seattle were all integrated teams the Cats played.

 

I might add that the 1958 tourney was won and UK defeated integrated teams from Temple (Guy Rogers) and Seattle (Charley Brown and the great Elgin Baylor) to win the championship.

 

While I agree Basketball is much different these days, one can't be judged less capable because the era is different. Great coaches like Rupp and K adapt to what they have.

 

An example of Rupp would be that he won with different teams and styles. He won with tall centers (for their day) with the Fabulous Five (Groza) and Bill Spivey ('51). He won with smaller, quicker centers like Hagan ('54) and Issel ('70) and he won with guard oriented teams like in '58 (Fiddlin' Five) and '66 (Rupp's Runts). :thumb:

It would be interesting to see how Coach K would do in the past and Rupp in the present. I agree with Walter, how would players respond to Rupp as their coach?

 

Probably in the same way that modern players responded to Bobby Knight. :thumb:

I really respect Coach Ks accomplishments , but I really think there is no comparison . I say Rupp won with a whole lot less talent . I really think Rupp would have been a scary coach in the present time because of what he expected and demanded from his players . If he had the athletic players of today in his time , How good would he have been ? As stated in other :cool:posters response this is just my opinion .

 

I disagree. Rupp won with the best talent of the era.

 

The Fabulous Five left UK and en masse formed an NBA team called the Olympians and proceeded to finish in the Western Division Finals of the NBA their first year.

 

Hagan and Ramsey are both in the Basketball Hall of Fame and were key players on NBA title squads for the St Louis Hawks and Boston Celtics.

 

Louie Dampier owned numerous ABA records for three point shooting in career and season stats.

 

Dan Issel finished his career as one of the top ten all time Pro scorers when including ABA with NBA stats.

 

Rupp had talent. In fact, to date, I don't think Coach K has produced the same level of post college talent that Rupp did. In time it will shake out but how many post Duke careers stack up to the above right now? :thumb:

I'm not going to say it was "a genteman's agreement." There was nothing gentelmanly about the way the southern schools acted. (see Miss State and Alabama in the 50's and 60's banning their teams from NCAA play or the state of Louisiana ending the Sugar Bowl Tourney because of the same rationale)

 

However, UK did play teams that were integrated in the 50's and beyond. St. Johns, Michigan State, Iowa, Temple, Seattle were all integrated teams the Cats played.

 

I might add that the 1958 tourney was won and UK defeated integrated teams from Temple (Guy Rogers) and Seattle (Charley Brown and the great Elgin Baylor) to win the championship.

 

While I agree Basketball is much different these days, one can't be judged less capable because the era is different. Great coaches like Rupp and K adapt to what they have.

 

An example of Rupp would be that he won with different teams and styles. He won with tall centers (for their day) with the Fabulous Five (Groza) and Bill Spivey ('51). He won with smaller, quicker centers like Hagan ('54) and Issel ('70) and he won with guard oriented teams like in '58 (Fiddlin' Five) and '66 (Rupp's Runts). :thumb:

 

You make great points. Because of your points I say there is no sure fire way to say who is better since it is clear that they are the best coaches of their eras but I would pick Coach K because I am biased and also because I think that Coach K would be just as successful as Rupp was during Rupp's time. I don't think Rupp would be any better than Tubby Smith(if that) in this era. No way Rupp wins a title in today's game. No one would play for him.

 

As for the 'agreement' I know Rupp coached against some integrated teams and he adapted to the game around him before the 'agreement' was obsolete but I can't help but wonder how he would have done against UNLV. Yes, he played against some good teams as you mentioned but when you can name the few 'integrated' teams that he coached against that is still a smaller deck to play with than Coach K's deck. With the exception of this year, how many of UNC's teams since Coach K started coaching would Rupp been able to defeat? And Coach K has to play them at least twice a year and still has how many conference championships? I'd venture to guess that Rupp never had to face the kind of competition as often as Coach K does and if Rupp would have faced that kind of competition regularly, how successful would he have been?

 

Again, Rupp is easily one of the greatest coaches ever in college basketball and that will never change. It is hard to compare coaches from two different eras but I tried.

You make great points. Because of your points I say there is no sure fire way to say who is better since it is clear that they are the best coaches of their eras but I would pick Coach K because I am biased and also because I think that Coach K would be just as successful as Rupp was during Rupp's time. I don't think Rupp would be any better than Tubby Smith(if that) in this era. No way Rupp wins a title in today's game. No one would play for him.

 

As for the 'agreement' I know Rupp coached against some integrated teams and he adapted to the game around him before the 'agreement' was obsolete but I can't help but wonder how he would have done against UNLV. Yes, he played against some good teams as you mentioned but when you can name the few 'integrated' teams that he coached against that is still a smaller deck to play with than Coach K's deck. With the exception of this year, how many of UNC's teams since Coach K started coaching would Rupp been able to defeat? And Coach K has to play them at least twice a year and still has how many conference championships? I'd venture to guess that Rupp never had to face the kind of competition as often as Coach K does and if Rupp would have faced that kind of competition regularly, how successful would he have been?

 

Again, Rupp is easily one of the greatest coaches ever in college basketball and that will never change. It is hard to compare coaches from two different eras but I tried.

 

Good stuff PP. :thumb:

 

I don't know how Rupp would do because we don't know what kind of talent he would have. The assumption he would be playing with an all-white team is not a valid one IMO.

The point I made above is Rupp was much more dominant in his era than Coach K is in his. Just look at how many coaches have won over 800 games coaching in this era. There are 6 coaches in Coach K's era over 800 wins. There are a half dozen more that will go past 700 wins in the next couple of years. When Rupp retired there were only 5 over 600 wins. So please don't say it is more difficult in Coach K's era because there are a boatload of coaches getting the wins. I think winning percentage says a lot and Rupp is still #1 all time in winning percentage. Like I said above, I put Coach K right at the top in this era but Rupp is the Babe Ruth of college basketball.

The point I made above is Rupp was much more dominant in his era than Coach K is in his. Just look at how many coaches have won over 800 games coaching in this era. There are 6 coaches in Coach K's era over 800 wins. There are a half dozen more that will go past 700 wins in the next couple of years. When Rupp retired there were only 5 over 600 wins. So please don't say it is more difficult in Coach K's era because there are a boatload of coaches getting the wins. I think winning percentage says a lot and Rupp is still #1 all time in winning percentage. Like I said above, I put Coach K right at the top in this era but Rupp is the Babe Ruth of college basketball.

 

Rupp is Babe Ruth in Kentucky. John Wooden is Babe Ruth in the rest of the country.

Rupp is Babe Ruth in Kentucky. John Wooden is Babe Ruth in the rest of the country.

 

:isurrender::ohbrother:

Rupp is Babe Ruth in Kentucky. John Wooden is Babe Ruth in the rest of the country.

 

I can see that. But this thread was really talking about the comparison of K and Rupp because they both have 4 NCAA Championships.

 

For the record, John Wooden's coaching mark is 664-162 for an 80% win mark.

 

10 Titles in 12 years.

12 Final Fours

No Elite 8's.

4 other Sweet 16 appearances.

Rupp is Babe Ruth in Kentucky. John Wooden is Babe Ruth in the rest of the country.

 

To those who get their knowledge from CBS and don't know college basketball's past, that is probably true. Take nothing away from Wooden and his 10 titles are amazing. But he won over 200 games less than Rupp, lost almost as many in 11 fewer seasons and Rupp's winning percentage is better than Wooden's. Some might be surprised by that knowing the long winning streaks UCLA had under Wooden. The casual fans know as much about Rupp as they do his contemporaries, Hank Iba and Phog Allen. Rupp is too far in the past for those surface level fans. But if you take the time and look at Rupp's numbers, they are incredible and almost as dominating as Wooden's 10 year title run.

Good stuff PP. :thumb:

 

I don't know how Rupp would do because we don't know what kind of talent he would have. The assumption he would be playing with an all-white team is not a valid one IMO.

 

I don't think he'd play with an all-white team but I don't think he'd have any McDonald's All Americans or a plethora of top 100 talent either. I just can't picture him relating that well with AAU circuit and the WWW's of the world so I believe he'd have to play with mostly mid major talent at best. That's not to say he couldn't be successful(see Tubby Smith) I just don't see him winning titles in today's environment.

 

You never know though.