September 30, 200916 yr This won't make me popular among my educator-friends, BUT Many are saying that to teach longer yet make the same money isn't what they signed up for... Well.....many of us in the private sector didn't either. Many people in the private, non-education sector have gone without raises, seen their work loads increased as staffs are cut, and work from home as well to keep up. I know, I know....I don't understand. But I just thought I'd throw out there that it isn't just teachers that are being asked to do more for the same amount of money, and do a lot on their own time as well. Please throw tomatos....they hurt less than potatos.:isurrender:
September 30, 200916 yr You obviously haven't read any of my posts if you are asking me that question. Can you give me the short version?
September 30, 200916 yr Actually, that's a fairly common trend in a lot of schools today. Special ed students, in fact, are in the general classroom with non-disabled students. But schools still have elite level math classes, right?
September 30, 200916 yr This won't make me popular among my educator-friends, BUT Many are saying that to teach longer yet make the same money isn't what they signed up for... Well.....many of us in the private sector didn't either. Many people in the private, non-education sector have gone without raises, seen their work loads increased as staffs are cut, and work from home as well to keep up. I know, I know....I don't understand. But I just thought I'd throw out there that it isn't just teachers that are being asked to do more for the same amount of money, and do a lot on their own time as well. Please throw tomatos....they hurt less than potatos.:isurrender: Your point is correct. What we sign up for vs what we're asked to do are often two different things. Fortunately, eveyone has the option of finding a new job/career.
September 30, 200916 yr a. Wrong. For example, the Program for International Student Assessment tests 15 year olds from around the world. The US was 24th. b. Are they not teaching science using the metric system in Kentucky? If they're not, I feel sorry for the kids. I've been out of school many years, but I never took a college science course where the main measurement system was the US common units. It was always metrics. c. Japan tests all students from grade 1 up, however the tests are intuitive not standardized. (Microsoft is moving this way for their certification testing.) d. What does Shakespeare have to do with Math and Science? Last I checked, I've never used any Shakespeare to write a computer program. You can believe what you want. Sorry, but we're behind. Way behind and losing ground every year. "Science and math assessment in TIMSS were conductin the metric system (th U>S> being the only nation that does not teach exclusively in the metric system); in one assessment, the US was one of only four nationsnot allowed to use calculators; and in the '12th grade assessment' of math/science literacy, American students averaged 18.1 years of age. In four of the other twenty nations, students were almost 19, and in two they were over 20, with Iceland garnering first place for the eldest cohort tested, 21.2 years. In the 16 nations that participated in the physics assessment, only the Russion Federation's students were quate a bit younger than American students (16.9) . . . but Russia only tested 2% of them. Students in Denmark, Italy, Austira, Germany, and Switzerland were all older than 19 on average and had 1 or 2 more years of schooling than US high school seniors. The PISA Programme for International Student Assessment in 2003 showed that the US 15 year olds scored 18th in reading and 21st in science out of 41 nations, exceeding Denmark, Germany, Austria, Spain, Norway and the like, where one hears less talk of education crises. How do you test reading? Were young Greman students quizzed on passages from Schiller while US 15 year olds puzzled over Shakespeare, or does one use Schlegel's translations of Shakespeare, and how do you compare reading complexity in passages between Farsi and Finnish. MOST IMPORTANTLY - in dealing with PISA - the test was administered again in 2006 with nearly a half million 15 year old students in 57 countries. It was a 2 hour test with multiple choice and open ended test items. Reading, mathematics, and science was tested. One of the key features was the opportunity to examine changes over 3 and 6 years. Unfortunately for the US improperly printed direstion in the test booklet sent examinees to wrong pages and THEIR RESULTS HAD TO BE THROWN OUT. Taken from FERTILIZERS, PILLS, AND MAGNETIC STRIPS by Gene V Glass
September 30, 200916 yr More on PISA Like all international assessments dating back to the early 1970s PISA has its share of absurdities, inconsistencies, and misinformation. The US scored above Israel and Norway in science on the 2006 PISA, but scored below Azerbaijan and Ireland in mathematics. From 03-06, Mexico gained 21 points in math while France was losing 15. Austria went up 20 points in science while Japan declined by 17 points. What possible policy implications could such informaiton hold. Even when more recent assessments showed US students excelling in math and science, politicians continued to issue jeremiads as though good news is no news. TIMSS results from 2003 revelaed that only three places Hong Kong, Latvia, and Lithuania had larger gains in eighth grade math than the US and that US eighth graders rankded ninth out of 44 nations in Science. Nonetheless, while reporting these results a New York Time editorial warned that if America fails to take school reform seriously, American children will fall further and further behind their peers abroad. Glass Should I go on, because I can.
September 30, 200916 yr But schools still have elite level math classes, right? And English, and History, and... you get the picture.
September 30, 200916 yr And English, and History, and... you get the picture. I guess I'm confused. A poster said that top math students can't excel due to them being lumped in with lower-level math kids. Two teachers said that there is an issue related to the "gap" between the top and bottom students. I'm just seeking clarification that 99% of high schools do, indeed, separate their students by math ability and teach to their level? In other words, while many of the students are not top math students those that are are being taught and encouraged to do their best. I get the impression from the educators that maybe that's not the case. I find that difficult to swallow.
September 30, 200916 yr More on PISA Like all international assessments dating back to the early 1970s PISA has its share of absurdities, inconsistencies, and misinformation. The US scored above Israel and Norway in science on the 2006 PISA, but scored below Azerbaijan and Ireland in mathematics. From 03-06, Mexico gained 21 points in math while France was losing 15. Austria went up 20 points in science while Japan declined by 17 points. What possible policy implications could such informaiton hold. Even when more recent assessments showed US students excelling in math and science, politicians continued to issue jeremiads as though good news is no news. TIMSS results from 2003 revelaed that only three places Hong Kong, Latvia, and Lithuania had larger gains in eighth grade math than the US and that US eighth graders rankded ninth out of 44 nations in Science. Nonetheless, while reporting these results a New York Time editorial warned that if America fails to take school reform seriously, American children will fall further and further behind their peers abroad. Glass Should I go on, because I can. You can if you like. The study I quoted was from 2005. You and I could pull opposing data from now 'til the cows come home, and honestly, I don't have time to glean the info. This is what I do know from experience dealing with engineering and technology departments within major corporations, on a daily basis, for the last 30 years. Few of the personnel I work with, or their managers, speak English as a first language. 20 years ago, that wasn't the case. The bottom line is, if anybody doesn't want to believe we are behind, then fine don't. In either case, when it comes to educating the ones to run this country in the future, I would rather err on the side of being proactive, as opposed to treading water.
September 30, 200916 yr Can you give me the short version? No. I wouldn't ask you a question without giving you the courtesy of having read your previous posts.
September 30, 200916 yr This won't make me popular among my educator-friends, BUT Many are saying that to teach longer yet make the same money isn't what they signed up for... Well.....many of us in the private sector didn't either. Many people in the private, non-education sector have gone without raises, seen their work loads increased as staffs are cut, and work from home as well to keep up. I know, I know....I don't understand. But I just thought I'd throw out there that it isn't just teachers that are being asked to do more for the same amount of money, and do a lot on their own time as well. Please throw tomatos....they hurt less than potatos.:isurrender: As long as I can pay my bills I will teach, because it is my passion. Trust me, trust me, trust me...there is a whole array of additional duties that are lumped on teachers (just like any other profession) that we did not sign up for. There are additional hours, additional expenses, additional everything. We never get a bonus (many other professions don't, but some do). We've also seen our work loads increase as staffs are cut (with no additional pay) and yes, we work at home, too.
September 30, 200916 yr No. I wouldn't ask you a question without giving you the courtesy of having read your previous posts. Wow. I feel like I'm back in high school Chemistry. I've read EVERY one of your posts twice. I have yet to see where you answer my question about the point that someone made saying that advanced math students or science students suffer because they are slowed down by those below them academically. All I saw was you agreeing with LBBC that the issue of "gap" is a problem. That still doesn't address my fundamental question: Are advanced students suffering because of either lower tier students being in the same class with them or because teachers choose to not maximize the advanced students learning because of the "gap" issue? Did I miss that specific point being addressed somewhere in this thread?
September 30, 200916 yr Wow. I feel like I'm back in high school Chemistry. I've read EVERY one of your posts twice. I have yet to see where you answer my question about the point that someone made saying that advanced math students or science students suffer because they are slowed down by those below them academically. All I saw was you agreeing with LBBC that the issue of "gap" is a problem. That still doesn't address my fundamental question: Are advanced students suffering because of either lower tier students being in the same class with them or because teachers choose to not maximize the advanced students learning because of the "gap" issue? Did I miss that specific point being addressed somewhere in this thread? The issue is multifaceted. First, I have had previous administrators tell me that our focus needs to be on our lowest performing student...that our "best" teachers need to be with that group. The upper level kids should somehow be able to teach themselves without a high caliber teacher. I've been unpopular with some administrators in my flat out refusal to follow that policy. :lol: Another issue is that in some cases, more upper level courses cannot be offered because of students that have failed previously repeating the same class. Additional sections (classes) that could be used for upper level electives have to instead be used for the repeaters. I do not think that there exists a teacher mentality of "don't maximize the top." I think that the administrative push in some instances is to put more emphasis on the "bottom" to reduce gaps.
September 30, 200916 yr As long as I can pay my bills I will teach, because it is my passion. Trust me, trust me, trust me...there is a whole array of additional duties that are lumped on teachers (just like any other profession) that we did not sign up for. There are additional hours, additional expenses, additional everything. We never get a bonus (many other professions don't, but some do). We've also seen our work loads increase as staffs are cut (with no additional pay) and yes, we work at home, too. Just so you understand, I don't underestimate your job, nor the challenges associated with it. I just feel that some teachers are prone to feel their situation is worse than others in other industries. I think there are a lot of jobs out there, and all have their pros and cons. I think of people I know who rarely got to see their kid play sports because they were working two jobs, or those who work for far less money than I do, even with overtime. I try to keep all that in perspective when evaluating my personal job situation. Teachers do have a benefit that many in the private industry don't...tenure. And the retirement benefits are good, too....my company doesn't offer retirement at all. :lol: I'll just work into death.
September 30, 200916 yr Just so you understand, I don't underestimate your job, nor the challenges associated with it. I just feel that some teachers are prone to feel their situation is worse than others in other industries. I think there are a lot of jobs out there, and all have their pros and cons. I think of people I know who rarely got to see their kid play sports because they were working two jobs, or those who work for far less money than I do, even with overtime. I try to keep all that in perspective when evaluating my personal job situation. Teachers do have a benefit that many in the private industry don't...tenure. And the retirement benefits are good, too....my company doesn't offer retirement at all. :lol: I'll just work into death. And some of those in the private sector have a benefit that teachers do not. Union strikes to make sure they are getting the pay and benefits that they receive. It is illegal for teachers to go on strike. The tenure is an argument that people pull out that really don't understand what tenure is. If you are a bad teacher, than you can be fired. It is that simple.
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