IMO if you're not doing anything wrong - you have nothing to fear with the Patriot Act.

 

So, it's okay to take away SOME of our civil liberties? It's okay to have SOME big government?

The POTENTIAL and OCCATIONAL civil liberties issues of the Patriot Act pale to the original thread issue - the scale and power of government to DIRECTLY control day to day activities and freedoms.

 

Witness the take over 2 major automobile companies so that the government could pay off the union supporters. Then witness the same government forcing the closure of 2,000 auto dealers to futher centralize its control of this industry. That act will lead to tens of thousands of lost jobs. Most definitely most of those jobs would not be lost if the government had not taken over these companies. This administration does not execute people the way that Stalin did or that Hussien did. But it certainly has no issue with arbitrarily deciding who works and who does not. The actions of the last few days are DIRECT and REAL for thousands of Americans.

The POTENTIAL and OCCATIONAL civil liberties issues of the Patriot Act pale to the original thread issue - the scale and power of government to DIRECTLY control day to day activities and freedoms.

 

Witness the take over 2 major automobile companies so that the government could pay off the union supporters. Then witness the same government forcing the closure of 2,000 auto dealers to futher centralize its control of this industry. That act will lead to tens of thousands of lost jobs. Most definitely most of those jobs would not be lost if the government had not taken over these companies. This administration does not execute people the way that Stalin did or that Hussien did. But it certainly has no issue with arbitrarily deciding who works and who does not. The actions of the last few days are DIRECT and REAL for thousands of Americans.

 

2 major automobile companies came to the government with their hats in hand begging for money. There was no hostile takeover. The government hasn't forced anything. These companies should have taken the measures they're being compelled to take now, well before they came looking for a handout. Jobs most definitely would have been lost even if the government weren't involved in these companies now. These companies were laying off workers, closing plants, eliminating shifts even before this. Workers still working are being paid with taxpayer dollars at this point.

 

Don't blame the government. The choice was to let the entire corporations fail, or try to assist in propping them up until they righted the ship. But, when you come asking for prolonged assistance, then the government most assuredly has the duty to protect the taxpayer investment.

2 major automobile companies came to the government with their hats in hand begging for money. There was no hostile takeover. The government hasn't forced anything. These companies should have taken the measures they're being compelled to take now, well before they came looking for a handout. Jobs most definitely would have been lost even if the government weren't involved in these companies now. These companies were laying off workers, closing plants, eliminating shifts even before this. Workers still working are being paid with taxpayer dollars at this point.

 

Don't blame the government. The choice was to let the entire corporations fail, or try to assist in propping them up until they righted the ship. But, when you come asking for prolonged assistance, then the government most assuredly has the duty to protect the taxpayer investment.

 

:thumb:

The government sure didn't protect my investment in GM..

The government sure didn't protect my investment in GM..

 

 

Blame GM, not the government. The investment was going south before the government got involved. You might have considered dumping it when you saw where it was headed, instead of holding onto it think the government was going to save it. Or, you can suck it up, hold onto it and wait for it to grow. But I doubt it will ever reach previous levels.

2 major automobile companies came to the government with their hats in hand begging for money. There was no hostile takeover. The government hasn't forced anything. These companies should have taken the measures they're being compelled to take now, well before they came looking for a handout. Jobs most definitely would have been lost even if the government weren't involved in these companies now. These companies were laying off workers, closing plants, eliminating shifts even before this. Workers still working are being paid with taxpayer dollars at this point.

 

Don't blame the government. The choice was to let the entire corporations fail, or try to assist in propping them up until they righted the ship. But, when you come asking for prolonged assistance, then the government most assuredly has the duty to protect the taxpayer investment.

 

Doesn't bankruptcy do the exact same thing?

 

Wasn't the government saying things like "we can't allow the automakers/banks to fail"? They made it sound like cars and loans would never exist again if they didn't use OUR money to bail with. The government used our money for this and I'm pretty sure they did it against our (the majority of Americans) approval.

 

Most of us knew this would not work. For some reason (can't put a finger on it yet) I think they also knew it wouldn't work.

Don't blame the government. The choice was to let the entire corporations fail, or try to assist in propping them up until they righted the ship. But, when you come asking for prolonged assistance, then the government most assuredly has the duty to protect the taxpayer investment.

 

Sorry RM. The government should have stayed out. The government 'saved' the companies to 'save' their precious union votes. Nothing more. They then turned around and cut dealers - who are, of course, non-union.

 

But here is the main point - there is no real reason for a mass closing of dealerships. The marketplace did not dictate this mass closing - the centralized car zsar did. Some dealers probably would struggle and go under - given the times that is certain. But most would survive and be fine. Instead a centralized government using Soviet-era style economic practices is dictating who makes it .... and who does not.

This had far, far, far, far, far more to do with individuals taking on more responsibility than they could handle. Yes, the lenders bear some responsibility too, but a gun was not held to the borrowers head to force them to agree to the terms of a loan. Instead of added regulation how about some personal responsibility.

You speak as though the creditors greed didn't blind them from seeing the risk they were offering. Dead people, childern, and pets are still being preapproved for credit cards and loans. The fact remains that if the lending institutions were more closely regulated to prevent irresponisible loan giving we wouldn't have seen the sub prime market collapse.

Sorry RM. The government should have stayed out. The government 'saved' the companies to 'save' their precious union votes. Nothing more. They then turned around and cut dealers - who are, of course, non-union.

 

But here is the main point - there is no real reason for a mass closing of dealerships. The marketplace did not dictate this mass closing - the centralized car zsar did. Some dealers probably would struggle and go under - given the times that is certain. But most would survive and be fine. Instead a centralized government using Soviet-era style economic practices is dictating who makes it .... and who does not.

 

This is the article I'm most familiar with on the subject. Admittedly, I haven't been paying as close of attention, but I haven't seen anything to confirm your post.

 

As to the thread topic: When has the size of the government ever declined? I don't think the current size of the government or its growth should be a revelation to anyone.

This is the article I'm most familiar with on the subject. Admittedly, I haven't been paying as close of attention, but I haven't seen anything to confirm your post.

 

As to the thread topic: When has the size of the government ever declined? I don't think the current size of the government or its growth should be a revelation to anyone.

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/05/collapse_of_lenders_opposition.html

 

He added that the process resembles legal proceedings in less-developed nations where longstanding rules can change to suit the government's whims.

 

"Everybody can see that it is happening, but you can't prove it in a court of law," Bharath said.

 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/495xuxad.asp

 

In an extraordinary abuse of government power, the Obama administration has run roughshod over bankruptcy law, bullied Chrysler investors, and orchestrated a takeover of the Auburn Hills-based automaker by the United Auto Workers union, a key Democratic party constituency that gave $5 million to the Obama campaign in 2008.

 

The Obama administration's scorched-earth tactics have won the UAW its prize, but at what cost?

Edited May 15, 200917 yr by Bluegrasscard
Add article

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/05/collapse_of_lenders_opposition.html

 

Thanks for the link. I still fail to see where Chrysler is acting against its will or where the government is forcing dealership closings.

Thanks for the link. I still fail to see where Chrysler is acting against its will or where the government is forcing dealership closings.

 

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/05/chrysler-eliminates-789-dealers-25-of.html

 

If you are a dealer and you are on the list below: tough luck - you may have a chance to appeal, but the process will likely be a moot point. However Zero Hedge summons all dealers and readers to show up at the designated hearing date in New York bankruptcy court, before the honorable Judge Gonzalez at One Bowling Green, on June 3, at 10:00 am. Should make for a very exciting hearing.

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/05/chrysler-eliminates-789-dealers-25-of.html

 

The list presented below, highlights the 789 dealers (out of a total of 3,200) that Chrysler has decided to eliminate at the first possible opportunity.

You speak as though the creditors greed didn't blind them from seeing the risk they were offering. Dead people, childern, and pets are still being preapproved for credit cards and loans. The fact remains that if the lending institutions were more closely regulated to prevent irresponisible loan giving we wouldn't have seen the sub prime market collapse.

 

I guess you did not read my post. I said that the lenders bear some of the responsibility, but the person asking for the money and agreeing to the terms of the deal should bear the lions share. Over regulation will still not change stupid.