When a school is placed on probation for violation (s) of the KHSAA, what exactly does that mean?

 

Can a team still compete in post season play?

 

Are their fines?

 

If the team being placed on probation recently won regional titles, districts and other tournaments throughout the year do they have to give back monies to host(s) and titles won?

 

Just curious, I couldn't really digest the online khsaa site on this particular subject. Maybe the BGP's could be of some help.

1. It means that they are being monitored and further violations during that perion will result in harsher penalties.

 

2. Yes

 

3. Sometimes

 

4. Not always

I dont care if your a private or public if your on Probation you should have to miss the post season at least one season.

I dont care if your a private or public if your on Probation you should have to miss the post season at least one season.

 

Double, secret probation. Usually nothing more than three little words and a eye on you. WOW:confused:

I dont care if your a private or public if your on Probation you should have to miss the post season at least one season.

 

Punish kids for adult transgressions?

I dont care if your a private or public if your on Probation you should have to miss the post season at least one season.

 

That's easy to say until facing the parents of kids who had absolutely nothing to do with the violations. If we are going with what should happen, then someone above the school level should have the legal authority to step in and say, "coach, this violation is clearly your responsibility. You exceeded game limits, you recruited, you did whatever. As such, you are not able to coach next year." Then you put the bullet on the correct target. Coaching is an extra duty assignment, unprotected from teaching contracts, etc. If local schools were more willing to step up and punish the adult violators, a lot of these type of problems would go away.

 

There are some violations I have watched in media accounts, etc., that are not directly related to the sports. In the case where athletes get illegal aid, non team members violate, etc., why not simply say that the school is out of play for a period of time (regular and postseason), and by the way, athletes get a free shot at going anywhere they want without restriction. As concerned as schools are about stabilizing enrollments, etc due to funding concerns, etc., do you really think they would risk losing 10 to 30 kids at a batch over a silly athletic matter? No. They would police themselves like never before.

 

Just a couple of random thoughts.

That's easy to say until facing the parents of kids who had absolutely nothing to do with the violations. If we are going with what should happen, then someone above the school level should have the legal authority to step in and say, "coach, this violation is clearly your responsibility. You exceeded game limits, you recruited, you did whatever. As such, you are not able to coach next year." Then you put the bullet on the correct target. Coaching is an extra duty assignment, unprotected from teaching contracts, etc. If local schools were more willing to step up and punish the adult violators, a lot of these type of problems would go away.

 

There are some violations I have watched in media accounts, etc., that are not directly related to the sports. In the case where athletes get illegal aid, non team members violate, etc., why not simply say that the school is out of play for a period of time (regular and postseason), and by the way, athletes get a free shot at going anywhere they want without restriction. As concerned as schools are about stabilizing enrollments, etc due to funding concerns, etc., do you really think they would risk losing 10 to 30 kids at a batch over a silly athletic matter? No. They would police themselves like never before.

 

Just a couple of random thoughts.

 

Hey, your thoughts sound vaguely familiar to something I've been saying for a while.

 

The schools have to have the ..... well, intestinal fortitude to suspend, fire, discipline their own coaches when the coaches violate or permit, knowingly or unknowingly, violations to occur in his/her program. Rather than sluffing off that responsibility to the KHSAA, any superintendent or principal worth their salt should want to take care of it his/herself. Its tough disciplining the head coach who is your buddy, but dang it true leaders do the tough thing and make the tough call. The head coach is in charge and responsible for making sure that his/her program is in compliance. What ever happened to the great concept of "the buck stops here"? He/she must make sure that the financial aid, the grade checking, the eligibility checking after a transfer, etc requirements are being met. I know that is/can be a lot of work and requires that the administration is providing the necessary help, but again, the head coach runs the program and must make sure the school is in compliance, because if it is not, his program and the players on his team will be the ones hurt. If the school wants to give that responsibility to the AD or someone else, than by gummit, that person's head should roll when the school is not in compliance. All I know is that this wink, wink stuff of "other schools do it, we just got caught" stuff has to stop if anyone wants to start taking the public private stuff seriously.

 

I also think that in certain circumstances, probation should mean the team is ineligible to participate in post season play and if that happens all kids in that school should be able to transfer one time without a loss of eligibility. That will definitely, in most cases, hit the affected school in the pocketbook and get their attention. Loss of students means loss of ADA money or tuition and most school systems aren't real fond of losing revenue these days.

 

Admittedly that action works much better in populated areas where there are other schools nearby that a student could transfer to. In some areas of the state, there isn't another school nearby, which means few students could transfer, but I nonetheless think it is something the KHSAA should consider, although I don't think they listen much to my posts on here.

That's easy to say until facing the parents of kids who had absolutely nothing to do with the violations. If we are going with what should happen, then someone above the school level should have the legal authority to step in and say, "coach, this violation is clearly your responsibility. You exceeded game limits, you recruited, you did whatever. As such, you are not able to coach next year." Then you put the bullet on the correct target. Coaching is an extra duty assignment, unprotected from teaching contracts, etc. If local schools were more willing to step up and punish the adult violators, a lot of these type of problems would go away.

 

There are some violations I have watched in media accounts, etc., that are not directly related to the sports. In the case where athletes get illegal aid, non team members violate, etc., why not simply say that the school is out of play for a period of time (regular and postseason), and by the way, athletes get a free shot at going anywhere they want without restriction. As concerned as schools are about stabilizing enrollments, etc due to funding concerns, etc., do you really think they would risk losing 10 to 30 kids at a batch over a silly athletic matter? No. They would police themselves like never before.

 

Just a couple of random thoughts.

 

I understand that kids would be the penalized. But maybe if it happened the parents at that school would be mad enough that they would hold the coach and the administration accountable for their behavior.

Hey, your thoughts sound vaguely familiar to something I've been saying for a while.

 

The schools have to have the ..... well, intestinal fortitude to suspend, fire, discipline their own coaches when the coaches violate or permit, knowingly or unknowingly, violations to occur in his/her program. Rather than sluffing off that responsibility to the KHSAA, any superintendent or principal worth their salt should want to take care of it his/herself. Its tough disciplining the head coach who is your buddy, but dang it true leaders do the tough thing and make the tough call. The head coach is in charge and responsible for making sure that his/her program is in compliance. What ever happened to the great concept of "the buck stops here"? He/she must make sure that the financial aid, the grade checking, the eligibility checking after a transfer, etc requirements are being met. I know that is/can be a lot of work and requires that the administration is providing the necessary help, but again, the head coach runs the program and must make sure the school is in compliance, because if it is not, his program and the players on his team will be the ones hurt. If the school wants to give that responsibility to the AD or someone else, than by gummit, that person's head should roll when the school is not in compliance. All I know is that this wink, wink stuff of "other schools do it, we just got caught" stuff has to stop if anyone wants to start taking the public private stuff seriously.

 

I also think that in certain circumstances, probation should mean the team is ineligible to participate in post season play and if that happens all kids in that school should be able to transfer one time without a loss of eligibility. That will definitely, in most cases, hit the affected school in the pocketbook and get their attention. Loss of students means loss of ADA money or tuition and most school systems aren't real fond of losing revenue these days.

 

Admittedly that action works much better in populated areas where there are other schools nearby that a student could transfer to. In some areas of the state, there isn't another school nearby, which means few students could transfer, but I nonetheless think it is something the KHSAA should consider, although I don't think they listen much to my posts on here.

 

I agree with what you say, but how should the situation like the Mitchell case be handled I would say court injuctions can put a coach between a rock and a hard place.

Punish kids for adult transgressions?

 

Punish programs for a programs trangressions? What about all the kids from teams or schools that do not cheat, recruit, or pay players? They get punished by getting beat by cheaters...........:thumb:

This talk of bans from post-season play, etc., might be feasible if the KHSAA investigations were completed and rulings handed down in a timely manner. If it takes 2 or 3 years for findings to be completed, if the school system has reacted as it should, the coaches and/or administrators involved in the violations will already be gone from the picture and any athletes involved will have graduated or transferred. That leaves only the student-athletes who have done nothing wrong to bear the punishment for transgressions that may have occurred before they were even enrolled at the school. Perhaps this is the reason a first offense does not carry a ban from play but a further offense during the probationary period would.

Double Secret Probation is the worst.

Double Secret Probation is the worst.

 

Yeah, and the KHSAA is in a "tough spot". I do agree that all the rules needed for policing the membership are on the books. Enforcement and due process will always be difficult. Years ago, the KHSAA did hand out stiffer penalties and were more timely in their efforts. They did use to penalize basketball program for the transgressions in football. In the 1920s, the Ashland Tomcats knowlingly used an overaged QB and the basketball team was not allowed to compete in the state tournament. Age was the main eligibility issue then.You could move freely from one school to the next each school year regardless if you competed in varsity athletics at your previous school. The Ashland coach moved to Louisville and coached here the next several seasons.:sssh:

I agree with what you say, but how should the situation like the Mitchell case be handled I would say court injuctions can put a coach between a rock and a hard place.

 

Not sure I follow what you are getting at.

Not sure I follow what you are getting at.

 

I guess my question is if a player gets an injuction that is eventually overturned the KHSAA says this is a violation by the coach and school. I just wonder do you think the coach should be punished?

 

I used the Mitchell case because it is one that I know this happened in.